Intended Catholic Dictatorship

The ultimate intention of Catholicism is the restoration of the Holy Roman Empire. That has always been the ambition, at least covertly, but now it is being promoted overtly and openly.

The purpose of this article is only to make that intention clear. It is not a criticism of Catholics or Catholicism (unless you happen to think a Catholic dictatorship is not a good thing).

The most important point is to understand that when a Catholic talks about liberty or freedom, it is not individual liberty that is meant, not the freedom to live one's life as a responsible individual with the freedom to believe as one chooses, not the freedom to pursue happiness, not the freedom to produce and keep what one has produced as their property. What Catholicism means by freedom, is freedom to be a Catholic, in obedience to the dictates of Rome.

"B. Catholic Culture and Civilization

"Therefore, the ideal of the Counter-Revolution is to restore and promote Catholic culture and civilization. This theme would not be sufficiently enunciated if it did not contain a definition of what we understand by Catholic culture and Catholic civilization. We realize that the terms civilization and culture are used in many different senses. Obviously, it is not our intention here to take a position on a question of terminology. We limit ourselves to using these words as relatively precise labels to indicate certain realities. We are more concerned with providing a sound idea of these realities than with debating terminology.

"A soul in the state of grace possesses all virtues to a greater or lesser degree. Illuminated by faith, it has the elements to form the only true vision of the universe.

"The fundamental element of Catholic culture is the vision of the universe elaborated according to the doctrine of the Church. This culture includes not only the learning, that is, the possession of the information needed for such an elaboration, but also the analysis and coordination of this information according to Catholic doctrine. This culture is not restricted to the theological, philosophical, or scientific field, but encompasses the breadth of human knowledge; it is reflected in the arts and implies the affirmation of values that permeate all aspects of life.

"Catholic civilization is the structuring of all human relations, of all human institutions, and of the State itself according to the doctrine of the Church.

Got that? "Catholic civilization is the structuring of all human relations, of all human institutions, and of the State itself according to the doctrine of the Church." The other name for this is called "totalitarianism," the complete rule of every aspect of life.

This book and WEB sites like that where it is found are spreading like wildfire. These people do not believe the hope of America is the restoration of the liberties the founders sought to guarantee, these people believe the only hope for America is Fatima. Really!

The following is from the site, "RealCatholicTV." It is a plain call for a "benevolent dictatorship, a Catholic monarch;" their own words. They even suggest that when the "Lord's Payer," is recited, it is just such a Catholic dictatorship that is being prayed for.

First, in this country, freedom of speech means that anyone may express any view no matter how much anyone else disagrees with that view, or is offended by it. I totally defend that meaning of freedom of speech.

This is what Catholics believe, and quite frankly, I do not see how any consistent Catholic could disagree with it, though I suspect some may. I have no objection to their promoting those views, because it is what they believe. Quite frankly I am delighted they are expressing them openly. For one thing, it makes it much easier to understand Catholic dialog, and what they mean by the words they use.

Secondly, I think if their views were actually implemented, it would mean the end true freedom, of course, but I do not believe there is any such danger.

And here is a good step by step learning process to become a pent-e-costal pastor like Benny Hinn (the guy who says God is not 3 but 9) or Kenneth Copeland (the guy who says Adam was "God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself. I mean a reproduction of Himself, and in the Garden of Eden He did just that. He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even. . . . Adam is as much like God as you could get, just the same as Jesus. . . . Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in the flesh." and has told believers that "You don't have a God in you. You are one.")

How to Fake a (Pentecostal) Healing

Pentecostals often remain in Pentecostalism despite many misgivings for one simple reason: the healings. They may admit that many of the practices and teachings are unbiblical. They may confess that there is rampant abuse and manipulation. But they shake off the doubts because they have seen so many supernatural events--people stand up out of wheelchairs, back pain healed, etc. And so they wonder, "If this is really so bad, why are so many people being healed? Isn't it all worth it if sick people are being restored to health?"

However, Pentecostal church services are all about showmanship and appearance. It is surprisingly easy to fake healings, even to hold entire healing services in which people appear to be 'healed' all over the church and yet no one is really cured. How is this accomplished? The trick is usually, as Miracle Max said in the quote above, to focus on problems which can be resolved some way other than strictly supernaturally, to learn to 'heal' those who are only partly ill or can be made to seem well when they are not.

Let's examine some of the most common 'healing' tricks in the Pentecostal experience:

(a) Bigfoot Sightings. Perhaps the largest category of fake healings is what I call "Bigfoot Sightings", because, like the mythical Bigfoot, all that is known about these healings is that somebody else swears that they saw them and that they are real.

Most often, it is the pastor or a visiting evangelist who relates stories of healings that occurred somewhere else. When these 'healings' are described in great detail to excited crowds, people tend to forget that they never actually witnessed the event and have no reason to believe that it actually occurred. In the retelling of the story, people often relate the healing as though they witnessed it themselves. It is only upon careful questioning that the truth emerges: nobody actually saw this one; it was just a story told to the group by some convincing-sounding guy with a microphone.

EXAMPLE: Evangelist/ missionary David Hogan often uses this technique. Every time he speaks to groups, he claims to have raised 400+ people from the dead and performed many amazing miracles. Although he relates many incredible stories, he never actually performs miracles at his meetings . . . he just talks about all the miracles that he supposedly performed somewhere else.

Hogan's fans often describe him as a great man of God who heals the sick and raises the dead. When directly asked, however, they admit that they have never actually seen Hogan do any miracles. The only reason they have to believe that Hogan has ever performed any miracles is that Hogan himself claims that he has.

(b) "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" Occasionally, 'healings' are fakes, plain and simple. Many evangelists believe that seeing people apparently get healed raises the level of faith of the parishioners and so opens the door for real healings. They use this as an excuse to orchestrate healing shows that are planned in advance simply to shock and amaze the crowd.

EXAMPLE: It is difficult to say how often this technique is used, because evangelists who employ it are usually quite careful to cover their tracks. However, occasionally, scandals open up that allow a glimpse inside such misdealings. One of the best known examples of the intentional and calculated use of fake healings involved cult leader Jim Jones. Jones began his ill-fated career as a Pentecostal revivalist and healer. One of his favorite techniques involved healing people of 'cancer' by apparently removing chunks of foul-smelling material from their bodies that he claimed were the cancerous tissues. People's Temple insiders later confessed that the 'cancers' were actually rotten chicken livers, produced at the appropriate time during the church service with a little slight-of-hand.

(c) MOSTLY disabled or ALL disabled? One of the most obvious and most popular techniques used by faith healers is based upon a popular misunderstanding of disabilities. When someone is in a wheelchair, people tend to assume that the person cannot walk AT ALL. This is rarely the case. Most people in wheelchairs can stand and even walk a little, just not far and not well. Likewise, when a person is said to be blind or deaf, people tend to assume that the person cannot see or hear AT ALL. Again, this is rarely the case. Most blind people can see a little, just not very well, and most people who are 'deaf' are really only partially deaf.

This explains why many 'miracles' that occur in faith-healing services appear to be only partial healings. A healer may tell someone in a wheelchair to stand and walk. The person shakily stands and limps painfully across the stage. The crowd cheers, because they think that this is amazing progress and that the person is on his or her way to a full recovery. But, in fact, it may be no improvement at all. Likewise, many healers will test a healing of a blind person by holding up a handkerchief and asking the person to grab it. When the blind person is able to take hold of the handkerchief, the crowd is amazed, not realizing that there is nothing remarkable about a partly blind person being able to see a large white object held only inches from his or her face.

EXAMPLE: This is one of the most common healing techniques and is used by many, many faith healers. One of the best known examples is Peter Popoff, who used a few trusted collegues to scout for healing candidates among the crowds that came to his healing services. Popoff's scouts always asked people in wheelchairs if they could walk a little or not at all. Any that could walk a little were called up to the front for 'healing' during the subsequent service. The technique was exposed by skeptic James Randi who placed actors in the audience to claim that they had disabilities. Randi's actors were interviewed by Popoff's scouts, and the information transmitted to Popoff via a radio transmitter. Randi intercepted and recorded the transmissions, which fed Popoff information on various audience members, including which of them would make good 'healing' candidates.

there are more examples in the link --> read 'em and you too can form a sub-division of the Quixotic grouping!

And sticking on the Pentec-ostl "paster" Kenneth Copeland, here are some more gems from his preachings:

Kenneth Copeland has taught the following

That we do not have a god in us but that we are a God.
“You don’t have a God in you. You are one!” - The Force of Love audiotape
That Adam was God manifest in the flesh.
"God's reason for creating Adam was His desire to reproduce Himself. I mean a reproduction of Himself, and in the Garden of Eden He did just that. He was not a little like God. He was not almost like God. He was not subordinate to God even. . . . Adam is as much like God as you could get, just the same as Jesus. . . . Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in the flesh."
Following the Faith of Abraham I, side 1
God is the greatest failure in the Universe
"I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is....The biggest one is God....I mean, He lost His top-ranking, most anointed angel; the first man He ever created; the first woman He ever created; the whole earth and all the Fullness therein; a third of the angels, at least--that's a big loss, man. . .
Praise-a-Thon program on TBN [April 1988]
God lives on a mother planet
"Heaven has a north and a south and an east and a west. Consequently, it must be a planet."
Spirit, Soul and Body I 1985 audiotape #01-0601, side 1

"You don't think earth was first, do you? Huh? Well, you don't think that God made man in His image, and then made earth in some other image? There is not anything under this whole sun that's new. Are you hearing what I'm saying? This is all a copy. It's a copy of home. It's a copy of the Mother Planet. Where God lives, He made a little one just like His and put us on it."
Following the Faith of Abraham I, 1989 audiotape #01-3001, side 1
The death of Jesus on the Cross did not pay the price for sins
"It wasn't the physical death on the cross that paid the price for sin..anybody could do that"
What Satan saw on the day of Pentecost

“Every prophet that walked the face of the earth under the Abrahamic covenant could have paid the price if it were a physical death only” “When he said ‘It is finished’ on that cross, he was not speaking of the plan of redemption. The plan of redemption had just begun, there were still three days and three nights to be gone through.” “[Jesus] accepted the sin nature of Satan in His own Spirit, and at the moment that He did so, He cried ‘My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?’.” “He [Jesus] was down in that pit and there he suffered the punishment for three horrible days and nights for Adam’s treason... There is a new birth takes place in the very depths of the earth, when the command of God says ‘That’s enough, loose him and let him go’.”
What Happened from the Cross to the Throne

Jesus was raped by homosexual Roman soldiers everyway possible
"Let me tell you something folks. Anybody in here that's ever been sexually abused, listen to me right now. Listen to me very carefully. The bible's very careful about the way it says these things. But down there in that dungeon, Romans, ungodly men, ungodly men, put him (Jesus) to every kind of abuse that you can think of. There is no sin that Jesus didn't bare. There is no thing, there is no such thing as a sexual abuse on somebody that Jesus doesn't know firsthand what it's all about. He's been where you are, I don't care what you've been through, Jesus has been through it. And everything's done to him that we we couldn't even speak of."
The Resurrection Truth
God and Adam are the same size
God spoke Adam into existence in authority with words. These words struck Adam's body in the face. His body and God were exactly the same size."
Holy Bible, Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition 1991, 45, emphasis in original
God has no right to the earth at all, he needs an invitation
"God had no avenue of lasting faith or moving in the earth. He had to have covenant with somebody. . . . He had to be invited in, in other words, or He couldn't come. God is on the outside looking in. In order to have any say so in the earth, He's gonna have to be in agreement with a man here."
God's Covenants With Man II 1985, audiotape #01-4404, side 1
Adam looks the same as Jesus and God
"[Adam] was the copy, looked just like [God]. If you stood Adam upside God, they look exactly alike. If you stood Jesus and Adam side by side, they would look and sound exactly alike."
Authority of the Believer IV 1987, audiotape #01-0304, side 1

Other Teachings

"Adam was made in the image of God. He was as much female as he was male. He was exactly like God. Then God separated him and removed the female part. Woman means 'man with the womb.' Eve had as much authority as Adam did as long as they stayed together."
Sensitivity of Heart KCP Publications, 1984, 23

"He [Jesus] is suffering all that there is to suffer. There is no suffering left apart from Him. His emaciated, poured out, little, wormy spirit is down in the bottom of that thing [hell]. And the Devil thinks he's got Him destroyed."
Believer's Voice of Victory" program [21 April 1991]. This message was originally delivered at the Full Gospel Motorcycle Rally Association 1990 Rally at Eagle Mountain Lake, Texas

"That Word of the living God went down into that pit of destruction and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life. He began to look like something the devil had never seen before."
The Price of it All," Believer's Voice of Victory 19, 9 [September 1991]:4

"He [Jesus] was literally being reborn before the devil's very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles. . . .Jesus was born again--the firstborn from the dead the Word calls Him--and He whipped the devil in his own backyard. He took everything he had away from him. He took his keys and his authority away from him." (Ibid., 4-6.)

"As a believer, you have a right to make commands in the name of Jesus. Each time you stand on the Word, you are commanding God to a certain extent because it is His Word."

Why exactly do you believe these?

PRAISE GOD
FOR THE VAST
MISSIONARY WORK
THAT
AIMEE SEMPLE MCPHERSON
BEGAN FOR HER LORD JESUS!

"THIS GOSPEL
IS
BEARING FRUIT
AND
GROWING”
COLOSSIANS 1:6

When the Francey family went to Okinawa as missionaries, we rented a building in the city of Nishihara, and began passing out fliers announcing the meetings. One elderly woman took one of these papers home to her son.

The son wrote to us, saying he was a very bad sinner. He had jumped on the Bible to destroy it. Could our God, Jesus Christ, forgive him? We were glad to have a “Yes” answer. This man, Tokeshi, came to the meetings and was saved. He asked God to deliver him from drinking sake (rice wine) and God did! His mother couldn’t stop thanking us for what we had done. We reminded her it was Jesus who did it.

Tokeshi had a serious heart condition, and he asked for prayer and God healed him. Then, he needed a job. Again we prayed, and God gave him a government job where he worked for years.

Some years later our family was invited to visit and minister in Japan and Okinawa. We visited the church we had pioneered in Nishihara. Tokeshi greeted us by pulling out of his pocket the worn flier his mother had given him years before. He was still serving the Lord.

Billie Charles Francey
Former [Foursquare] Missionary to Asia

Lord, I am in amazement at the way you change hearts and lives all around the world, not just here in my little corner… .
Page
—272 —

From:
FROM THE FIELD:
365 Missionary Stories
To Encourage Your Daily Walk
By
FOURSQUARE MISSIONS INTERNATIONAL
ICFG
INTERNATIONAL CHURCH of the FOURSQUARE GOSPEL
.
.
.

PRAISE GOD!
FOR HIS FAITHFULNESS
AND FOR HIS ABUNDANT BLESSINGS
ON THE MISSIONARY AND OTHER EFFORTS OF
THE INTERNATIONAL CHURCH OF THE FOURSQUARE GOSPEL
FOUNDED BY DEAR SISTER AIMEE.
PRAISE GOD
THAT HE IS VERY INCLINED TO SEE
HIS KIDS HEARTS
AND
TO SEE HIS KIDS
THROUGH THE BLOOD OF JESUS
VS
TO SEE THEIR FILTHY RAGS OF SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS
AND SINS
OR TO SEE
THROUGH THE NATURAL,
HUMAN EYES
OF
.
.
.
THE BITTER,
THE SPITEFUL,
THE GROSSLY HYPOCRITICAL,
THE SUPREMELY ARROGANT AND HAUGHTY,
THE VENGEFUL,
THE IGNORANT,
THE CLUELESS,
THE WILLFULLY BLIND,
THE LACKING IN EYES TO SEE AND EARS TO HEAR!

From here

Dr. Patrick Dixon in his book "Signs of Revival" lists six characteristics of an Altered State of Consciousness:

1. Alterations in thinking
2. Altered sense of time
3. Loss of control
4. Changes in emotional expression
5. Body image changes
6. Perceptual changes or hallucinations

The "laughing revival" is an altered state of consciousness.
A similar experience has taken place in Seattle, Washington called the "Seattle Revival Center." In 1994, three pastors, Darrel Stott of Lake Boren Christian Center, Steve Richard of Freedom Life Foursquare, and Wayne Anderson of International Church traveled to Toronto and claimed they "got drunk in the Holy Spirit."
Pastor Stott tells of his legs growing weak, falling on the floor, his legs flying in the air, laughing uncontrollably, feeling like a drunk, staggering, swinging around posts, shaking, furniture flying in the room, floor rolling, twitching, yelling, rolling down the halls, etc.. ("O Timothy" - #8, 1997 - page 2-4)
I believe these apparitions are demonic. At the Lausanne II Evangelical Conference in Manila in 1989, John Wimber testified of these supposed signs and wonders. "A member of the press panel from India refuted the claim that these miracles and signs must be from God. He said that the same charismatic-styled tongues, healings, miracles, signs and wonders are also found among the heathen religions of his native India." ("Foundation" magazine - March-April, 1997 - page 13)

From here

Music is a major factor in these supposed revivals. "One of the main songs at Pensacola is, 'The River is Here.'...Even a clear Biblical title for our Heavenly Father or His Son is totally missing from the lyrics. It is a 'New Age" type song that can be sung to a generic God. The mood of this song is hypnotic and literally sweeps the unsuspecting into a receptive mindset. People are readied to receive their 'apparition' by this kind of 'Beatles' music and sound." ("Pensacola Impartations-Apparitions" by Joseph R. Chambers).
James Ryles, the pastor of Bill McCartney, founder of Promise Keepers received a vision of the Beatles group, in which they represented the music God was going to use to bring and end-time revival. "In the summer of 1989, I had a dream...And I remember the dream thinking to myself, wow - this is like the Beatles music was new. The Lord spoke to me and said, 'What you saw in the Beatles - the gifting and that sound that they had - was from me. It did not belong to them. It belongeth to me. It was my purpose to bring forth through music a world-wide revival that would usher in the move of my spirit in bringing men and women to Christ." (Joseph R Chambers quoting "Harvest Conference, Denver, Colorado, James Ryle, November 1990)
Lendal Cooley, from the Vineyard Ministries is their music director at Brownsville. The music is a mix of rock and mood music. Don Moheim in the "Pentecostal Evangel" said "there is something spooky about the music, it has power to impart." (quote from video "Pensacola Impartations-Apparitions" by Joseph R. Chambers)
Joseph R. Chambers says of witnessing the music "It was full of hype and emotions, with a great majority of the audience jumping, dancing, etc. I don't mean spiritual worship, but the exact same as a rock concert. These revival services, whether at Pensacola, Toronto, Canada, or a Rodney Howard-Brown laughing service, are exact copies of a rock concert with the same emotions, the same hysteria, the same dance, and the same trivializing of truth, righteousness, and the glory of God." ("The False Anointing" by Joseph R. Chambers).
A group known as the Kansas City Prophets have done much to lend credence to these supposed revivals. There are several men all associated with a single church, formerly Kansas City Fellowship and now called Metro Vineyard Fellowship. Pastor Mike Bickle, is a leader in encouraging his flock to practice modern prophecy. Men from this group are often featured speakers at John Wimber's international conference ministry. Their teachings have been spread by a book entitled "Some Said it Thundered" by David Pytches. While they claim to receive prophecy from God they are about one to three in accuracy. In that book it states "Anyone who has experience in helping to nurture 'baby prophets' realizes that they have difficulty in distinguishing the words that the Spirit speaks from those that come from their own hearts or even from evil sources. At first they make many mistakes." (page 14) Some believe the movement is connected to the Latter Reign Movement of the forties and fifties. One of their staff members, Paul Cain, was associated with that movement.

And Milton Berle did manage to bed the grate founder of the FourSquare Ahoy chip cult!

MILTON BERLE AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY - Chapter 11, page 123
      In 1930, I took "Chasin' the Blues," a girl-studded flash act, out on the Orpheum Circuit. I was at the RKO Hill Street in Los Angeles the week there was a big charity show at the Shrine Auditorium. Every name act in town was asked to appear along with every movie star who gave a damn about something beside him or herself. The huge auditorium was filled, and backstage was like a sardine can packed with the world's most expensive sardines. Only one person stood alone, a woman well into her forties who wasn't half as beautiful as most of the movie names backstage. But there was something special about her. I felt it, and I didn't even know who she was, though her face looked familiar. It wasn't her dyed blond hair-there were lots of dyed blonds around-and it wasn't her dress, which didn't compare with some of the gowns the stars were wearing. It was something in the calm, sure way she stood-head up, back straight-waiting to go on.
      I pointed to her, and whispered to somebody standing next to me, "Who is that?"
      The guy looked at me as if I were a hermit who had just come out of the hills. "Aimee Semple McPherson." Aimee Semple McPherson!

MILTON BERLE AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY - Chapter 12, page 129
decided were good Early American antiques, and very little else. No pictures on the walls, very little on the tables besides lamps.
      Aimee was still in the bedroom. "You're not a very religious man, are you, Milton?"
      It was the first time she had ever gotten near her field of work while talking to me.
      I didn't know how to answer her. "Well, not the way you are."
      "I know what you mean," she said, "but I don't quite see myself that way. I work in the area of religion, but I think of myself more as a scientist and a crusader."
      "Why did you ask about me?"
      "I was just thinking," she said, and the light went out in the bedroom, "that unless you were really interested, perhaps a visit to my Temple could wait for a cooler day."
      The door opened, and there was Sister Aimee in a very thin, pale blue negligee, her braid undone and her blond hair hanging down around her shoulders. There was a soft flickering light somewhere behind her in the bedroom-candles, I guessed-and it was enough to show, me that she wasn't wearing anything underneath. "Come in" was all she said.
      It was candles all right. Two of them on the night table by the bed, which she had already turned down. They were burning in front of a silver crucifix that stood before a triptych panel of the scene on Calvary. That started my nerves going again, but I solved the problem. I decided not to face that way when we got into bed.
      We never got to the Four Square Gospel Temple.
      And we didn't get there two days later, when she called again. This time, she just sent the chauffeur for me to bring me straight to the apartment. We didn't even bother with lunch.
      When I was dressing to leave, she stuck out her hand. "Good luck with your show, Milton."
      What the hell. I couldn't resist it. "Good luck with yours, Aimee."

good teaching aids on

How to Fake a (Pentecostal) Healing

Pentecostals often remain in Pentecostalism despite many misgivings for one simple reason: the healings. They may admit that many of the practices and teachings are unbiblical. They may confess that there is rampant abuse and manipulation. But they shake off the doubts because they have seen so many supernatural events--people stand up out of wheelchairs, back pain healed, etc. And so they wonder, "If this is really so bad, why are so many people being healed? Isn't it all worth it if sick people are being restored to health?"

However, Pentecostal church services are all about showmanship and appearance. It is surprisingly easy to fake healings, even to hold entire healing services in which people appear to be 'healed' all over the church and yet no one is really cured. How is this accomplished? The trick is usually, as Miracle Max said in the quote above, to focus on problems which can be resolved some way other than strictly supernaturally, to learn to 'heal' those who are only partly ill or can be made to seem well when they are not.

Let's examine some of the most common 'healing' tricks in the Pentecostal experience:

(a) Bigfoot Sightings. Perhaps the largest category of fake healings is what I call "Bigfoot Sightings", because, like the mythical Bigfoot, all that is known about these healings is that somebody else swears that they saw them and that they are real.

Most often, it is the pastor or a visiting evangelist who relates stories of healings that occurred somewhere else. When these 'healings' are described in great detail to excited crowds, people tend to forget that they never actually witnessed the event and have no reason to believe that it actually occurred. In the retelling of the story, people often relate the healing as though they witnessed it themselves. It is only upon careful questioning that the truth emerges: nobody actually saw this one; it was just a story told to the group by some convincing-sounding guy with a microphone.

EXAMPLE: Evangelist/ missionary David Hogan often uses this technique. Every time he speaks to groups, he claims to have raised 400+ people from the dead and performed many amazing miracles. Although he relates many incredible stories, he never actually performs miracles at his meetings . . . he just talks about all the miracles that he supposedly performed somewhere else.

Hogan's fans often describe him as a great man of God who heals the sick and raises the dead. When directly asked, however, they admit that they have never actually seen Hogan do any miracles. The only reason they have to believe that Hogan has ever performed any miracles is that Hogan himself claims that he has.

(b) "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" Occasionally, 'healings' are fakes, plain and simple. Many evangelists believe that seeing people apparently get healed raises the level of faith of the parishioners and so opens the door for real healings. They use this as an excuse to orchestrate healing shows that are planned in advance simply to shock and amaze the crowd.

EXAMPLE: It is difficult to say how often this technique is used, because evangelists who employ it are usually quite careful to cover their tracks. However, occasionally, scandals open up that allow a glimpse inside such misdealings. One of the best known examples of the intentional and calculated use of fake healings involved cult leader Jim Jones. Jones began his ill-fated career as a Pentecostal revivalist and healer. One of his favorite techniques involved healing people of 'cancer' by apparently removing chunks of foul-smelling material from their bodies that he claimed were the cancerous tissues. People's Temple insiders later confessed that the 'cancers' were actually rotten chicken livers, produced at the appropriate time during the church service with a little slight-of-hand.

(c) MOSTLY disabled or ALL disabled? One of the most obvious and most popular techniques used by faith healers is based upon a popular misunderstanding of disabilities. When someone is in a wheelchair, people tend to assume that the person cannot walk AT ALL. This is rarely the case. Most people in wheelchairs can stand and even walk a little, just not far and not well. Likewise, when a person is said to be blind or deaf, people tend to assume that the person cannot see or hear AT ALL. Again, this is rarely the case. Most blind people can see a little, just not very well, and most people who are 'deaf' are really only partially deaf.

This explains why many 'miracles' that occur in faith-healing services appear to be only partial healings. A healer may tell someone in a wheelchair to stand and walk. The person shakily stands and limps painfully across the stage. The crowd cheers, because they think that this is amazing progress and that the person is on his or her way to a full recovery. But, in fact, it may be no improvement at all. Likewise, many healers will test a healing of a blind person by holding up a handkerchief and asking the person to grab it. When the blind person is able to take hold of the handkerchief, the crowd is amazed, not realizing that there is nothing remarkable about a partly blind person being able to see a large white object held only inches from his or her face.

EXAMPLE: This is one of the most common healing techniques and is used by many, many faith healers. One of the best known examples is Peter Popoff, who used a few trusted collegues to scout for healing candidates among the crowds that came to his healing services. Popoff's scouts always asked people in wheelchairs if they could walk a little or not at all. Any that could walk a little were called up to the front for 'healing' during the subsequent service. The technique was exposed by skeptic James Randi who placed actors in the audience to claim that they had disabilities. Randi's actors were interviewed by Popoff's scouts, and the information transmitted to Popoff via a radio transmitter. Randi intercepted and recorded the transmissions, which fed Popoff information on various audience members, including which of them would make good 'healing' candidates.

there are more examples in the link --> read 'em and you too can form a sub-division of the Quixotic grouping!eys and his authority away from him." (Ibid., 4-6.)

When the Francey family went to Okinawa as missionaries, we rented a building in the city of Nishihara, and began passing out fliers announcing the meetings. One elderly woman took one of these papers home to her son.
The son wrote to us, saying he was a very bad sinner. He had jumped on the Bible to destroy it. Could our God, Jesus Christ, forgive him? We were glad to have a “Yes” answer. This man, Tokeshi, came to the meetings and was saved. He asked God to deliver him from drinking sake (rice wine) and God did! His mother couldn’t stop thanking us for what we had done. We reminded her it was Jesus who did it.

Another good training lesson for
How to Fake a (Pentecostal) Healing
Let's examine some of the most common 'healing' tricks in the Pentecostal experience:

(a) Bigfoot Sightings. Perhaps the largest category of fake healings is what I call "Bigfoot Sightings", because, like the mythical Bigfoot, all that is known about these healings is that somebody else swears that they saw them and that they are real.

Most often, it is the pastor or a visiting evangelist who relates stories of healings that occurred somewhere else. When these 'healings' are described in great detail to excited crowds, people tend to forget that they never actually witnessed the event and have no reason to believe that it actually occurred. In the retelling of the story, people often relate the healing as though they witnessed it themselves. It is only upon careful questioning that the truth emerges: nobody actually saw this one; it was just a story told to the group by some convincing-sounding guy with a microphone.

EXAMPLE: Evangelist/ missionary David Hogan often uses this technique. Every time he speaks to groups, he claims to have raised 400+ people from the dead and performed many amazing miracles. Although he relates many incredible stories, he never actually performs miracles at his meetings . . . he just talks about all the miracles that he supposedly performed somewhere else.

Hogan's fans often describe him as a great man of God who heals the sick and raises the dead. When directly asked, however, they admit that they have never actually seen Hogan do any miracles. The only reason they have to believe that Hogan has ever performed any miracles is that Hogan himself claims that he has.

Look for me in a heated baptismal font in your neighborhood real soon now.

They have those now? do they have cup-holders? Aeration? Water jets? A barbecue alongside, perhaps? Now, there's an ~~sacrament~~ ordinance I could get into! ***Note The pun is intended, and is free of charge.

Yes, this is very much a pet subject of mine. I am no great athlete of reason. But the question of its relationship to what it is to be human and to how we can know (if at all, or maybe if one day) the divine is VERY important to me.

I don't think you can get there by way of reason. Reason, in and of itself, is still a rather carnal process. It is discernment, or what you seem to be calling grace, that is the key.

[roamer_1:]
(1.) Christ is God.
(2.) As the body is connected to the Head, so we will be like Christ.
(3.) We will be like God.
(4.) Ergo, we will be gods.

But that's not good reasoning. Just looking at the thing itself, we see that 'like' is an ambiguous term. It can be used to mean "Exactly like" or "somewhat" or "in many respects like." [and etc. wrt your analysis]

First of all, I really don't wish to be sidetracked with this actual problem - I used it because some nice Mormons stopped by, and this was one of the main things we talked about.

The illustration is in the observance that a different people with a different "ruleset" can see something as quite reasonable, when you (no doubt) and I plainly reject it.

In anything but theology, that difference is not necessarily boolean (true/false).

I formed the argument hastily, and as an illustration only - I could defend it for the Mormons, break it down into syllogisms and properly assign a/e/i/o... But it is not important to me to challenge your argument. It is simply meant to show that reason is far from infallible.

But the fun part is in the conclusion:

[Mad Dawg:] So we find a suggestion that saying we will be gods is not entirely off the wall, while from the very first verse of Genesis we 'know' that there is some unbridgeable difference.
[roamer_1:] So, while we are made in His image, and it is written that we will be "like" Him, it is obvious that the similarity alluded to is certainly still (far, far) subordinate to the Infinite One, no matter what the outcome finally is. src

What is fun about it is that we arrive at a similar place using quite different methods.

And therein is another fly in the oinkmink (a little popeye lingo for ya there): There are many ways to skin a cat. When I have a problem, I tend to consult folks who don't think like me. That is possible because critical reasoning comes in many forms across many disciplines... And some methods work better than others on any given problem.

That may include proponents of classical reasoning, although I tend to find it inadequate in all it's forms for it's inability to deal with errata (erratic AND/OR error, rather than error only).

To summarize, then:

1.) Pure logic is unattainable as every individual is irrevocably tainted by a ruleset organically produced (like tomatos!) from environment/experience. That bias effects thinking explicitly and/or implicitly (cannot be overcome).

2.) No method of reasoning works efficiently across all problems: Conclusions vary, and there is no particular method which is TRUE in all situations... Each is sometimes better than others depending upon the data.

Reason, prompted and aided by grace, reaches a conclusion which, while not at all useless, is in some sense little more than a shrug, followed by a prostration.

...And then a Popsicle, if you're good... Brilliantly stated.

[roamer_1:] That presupposes the revelation to be true, which often is *not* the case. What you might believe is a misuse of reason, might well be a misuse of revelation.

[...] That is, the revelation is, by definition (yes?) true. But the use of it may be false. I think that may turn out to be an important difference.

Both, I suppose, but no. Revelation is often false. The devil appears as an angel of light," and all that... That is why one MUST have a universal standard.

My thinking calls that standard the Bible, because it is a closed and immovable ruleset, as standards (measurement) must be. You would seem to prefer tradition and whatnot. I cannot go there, as a dynamic, scalable ruleset is impossible to manage (weights and measures are not supposed to change).

Thanks again. I am thrilled to be trying to talk about this with such good minds.

Uhhh... Ummm... Yup! :D

This is great fun.

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