Why I’m Not Roman Catholic

Josiah Concept Ministries ^ | 20 04 09

[Gamecock]

James White had a very thoughtful post on the theological issues that underlie the decision to be or not to be Roman Catholic. Reading that post, as well as listening to his extended Dividing Line podcast has led me back into the fold of Calvinism, which I believe is a very good thing. I need to solidify my theology if I expect to defend it against outsiders.

But it leaves me with the question of why I’m Reformed and not something else, like Roman Catholic. Regular readers of this blog will recall that I was raised Catholic–baptized and confirmed. So why am I not still Catholic?

I’m not Catholic for four very important theological reasons: dispensing of grace by sacraments, veneration of saints and Mary, the Eucharist, and the alleged infallibility of the Pope. I simply cannot agree to the Roman theology behind these three items.

I’ve found recently in two snippets from the news and the book Justification by Hans Kung that the Roman view of justification is essentially the same as the Reformed view. I admit that I haven’t read Justification carefully enough, but I’m assured that that is the conclusion of the book. Man is justified before God solely on the basis of grace through faith, plus nothing. That is the Reformed view as well as the Catholic view.

However, Catholicism differs from the Reformed view of grace significantly. Grace is dispensed through the sacraments in Catholicism. In the Reformed view, it is God’s discretion upon whom grace is given; in other words, it is a free gift and not of works (Eph 2:8-10). Since grace is unmerited favor, it makes no sense that one has to work for it in the Roman view. On the other hand, the Reformed view makes much more sense; God bestows grace upon whom he will (see Rom 9).

Worshiping anyone or anything other than God is idolatry; Scripture makes that clear (see, for example, this post from TurretinFan). Therefore, I see no justification for the veneration of saints, angels, or the Virgin Mary that one sees in Romanism.

The rubber justification that the Romanists often use is that they only pay latria to God, while offering dulia to the saints and Mary. Latria is pure worship, while dulia is more like a deep reverence. This is a distinction without a difference. One should err on the side of caution, especially in light of the first commandment’s harsh penalty proscriptions for idolatry.

Consider the severe punishments that God pronounces on the entire nation of Israel for her disobedience and idolatry. Consider the judgments of the pagan nations in the Promised Land due to their idolatry. This is something that God takes very seriously. As an extension, so should we!

The Eucharist is a fancy form of idolatry. The Eucharist isn’t merely a symbol of the body and blood of Christ; in Romanism, it becomes the body and blood of Christ, and therefore an object to be worshiped. Worshiping bread and wine is idolatry, regardless of what it symbolizes.

The Eucharist is disgusting in another way. It “re-presents” the sacrifice of Christ, so that Jesus is sacrificed over and over again on the altars of Romanism. This makes light of the fact that Jesus declared on the cross, “It is finished” (Jn 19:30) because he offered himself once for all (Heb 7:27). There is no need to offer sacrifices daily because Jesus took care of all of that with the sacrifice of himself (Heb 10:11-14).

Finally, papal infallibility makes Roman Catholicism into a cult. The power of the pope to define doctrine ex cathedra, thus binding all Roman Catholics to that teaching for all time, is too much power to vest in one man. This is nothing less than an attack on the sufficiency of Scripture in faith and practice.

I’m not a Protestant out of mere preference, as James White suggests many are. I understand the theological issues that divide us from Roman Catholics. Ultimately, I know that Catholics aren’t saved because of what Rome teaches, but in spite of what Rome teaches.

[InternetTuffGuy]

Plus, you’re a muslim.

[vladimir998]

I wonder if his sister is still Catholic. James White’s sister became Catholic - a miracle when you think of the family she grew up in.

[Gamecock]

Ping.

Be prepared for all of the Scripture cited above to be waved off by FRoman Catholics.

[Northern Yankee]

The Eucharist is a fancy form of idolatry. The Eucharist isn’t merely a symbol of the body and blood of Christ; in Romanism, it becomes the body and blood of Christ, and therefore an object to be worshiped. Worshiping bread and wine is idolatry, regardless of what it symbolizes.

Not so... Catholics don't worship bread and wine. They/we worship the true presence of Christ. Jesus himself didn't tell his disciples that the body and bread are representive of him, but that through consecration/grace it becomes the true presence of Christ.

I don't mind people who are non-Catholic not accepting that, but lets not miss what Catholics believe.

[NoLibZone]

[ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton]

Interestingly this so called ‘cult’ has far more adherents than any other religious affiliation represented here on FR.

[CynicalBear]

Excellent article and I agree totally.

[keat]

Pretty shallow and childish reasoning.

[SERKIT]

Sophistry

[cripplecreek]

Personally I’m mostly curious about who is so intent on sparking fighting between Catholics and Protestants over the last few years.

[sueuprising]

I understand the theological issues that divide us from Roman Catholics. Theology is a very important field of study and a very interesting one as well. Having been a calvinist type in the past, I know how much theology plays in the Biblical perception of reformed folks. Because calvinism is so complex and requires pulling out pieces of scripture primarily from the book of Romans in order to give it credence, the intellectual discourse retains high regard. Your reasons for not being a Roman Catholic any longer seem valid enough, but you leave out an important aspect. A Christian is a born again creation. To Roman Catholics , their infant baptism takes care of that, as do a myriad of other rituals. Calvinists insist that God has already elected some to salvation, and consequently others to perdition (infralapsarians notwithstanding). This was something that ultimately made no sense in relation to the other attributes of God. He can remain sovereign while being merciful and patient,"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9)

[muawiyah]

Maybe, maybe not. The points he raises (4 in number) are sufficiently limited that I'd like to note that we've discussed all of them here from three sides frequently.

I'd like to step back from the Mary situation. A very long time ago I viewed the veneration of Mary as very akin to idolotry and then one day a friend of mine came to me at lunch and said "did you notice Mary is prophesied in the Bible?" And then we discussed that profound observation since remarkably few people are prophesied ~ John the Baptist, Jesus, Mary, and the far future, a variety of personalities.

Some years later along the path to the present I became educated in the broad outlines of the more formal elements of Hinduism. Lo and behold, they claim several visits from a very special Messiah ~ and every time he is sent, there's a feminine form that tags along taking her proper position as his bodyguard or his servant.

When you watch something like the Mahabarat you have to keep your eyes on that ~ Hindus know all about it so they kind of gloss over it.

Anyway, I won't pursue that anymore since the Hindus are going through a period of profound polytheism and are standing at the edge of a great abyss where they are going to need to rework morality and religion. In the broader sense they have nothing to teach Christianity, but in the very narrow sense of the Nature of Messiahs, and the place of the Female persona in religion, they ~ or rather God ~ hit it on the head.

She was prophesied in the very same prophesies as Jesus.

It is wrong to ignore the fact that she is very special. Certainly I'm not going to walk away and ignore her, yet there's got to be something short of worship of a her as a Fourth Person that is satisfactory,

Neither Protestants nor Catholics have, in my estimation, found a way to deal with God's feminine side ~

[ADSUM]

From www.catholic.org:

Catholic Belief

I.To gain the happiness of heaven we must know, love, and serve God in this world. Man must know, love and serve God in a supernatural manner in order to gain happiness of heaven. Man is raised to the supernatural order only by grace, a free gift of God.
II.We learn to know, love, and serve God from Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who teaches us through the Catholic Church.
III.In order to be saved, all persons who have attained the use of reason must believe explicitly that God exist and that he rewards the good and punishes the wicked; in practice they must also believe in the mysteries of the Blessed Trinity and the Incarnation.
IV.By the Blessed Trinity we mean one and the same God in three divine persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
V.By the Incarnation is meant that the Son of God, retaining His divine nature, took to Himself a human nature, that is, a body and soul like ours.
VI.The Church is the congregation of all baptized persons united in the same true faith, the same sacrifice, and the same sacraments, under the authority of the Sovereign Pontiff and the bishops in communion with him.
VII.We find the chief truths taught by Jesus Christ through the Catholic Church in the Apostles’ Creed.
The Commandments

•Besides believing what God has revealed, we must keep His law.
The Two Great Commandments

that contain the whole law of God are:

You shall love the Lord your God with your whole heart, and with your whole soul, and with your whole mind, and with your whole strength; you shall love your neighbor as yourself.

To love God, our neighbor, and ourselves, we must keep the commandments of God and of the Church, and perform the spiritual and corporal works of mercy.

The Ten Commandments of God

I.I am the Lord your God; you shall not have strange gods before me.
II.You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
III.Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day
IV.Honor your father and your mother.
V.You shall not kill.
VI.You shall not commit adultery.
VII.You shall not steal.
VIII.You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
IX.You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
X.You shall not covet you neighbor’s goods.
The Chief Commandments or Laws, of the Church

I.To assist at Mass on all Sundays and holy days of obligation.
II.To fast and abstain on the days appointed.
III.To confess our sins at least once a year.
IV.To receive Holy Communion during the Easter time.
V.To contribute to the support of the Church.
VI.To observe the laws of the Church concerning marriage.

[sueuprising]

Personally I’m mostly curious about who is so intent on sparking fighting between Catholics and Protestants over the last few years. That would be James White, founder of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and relentless debater of Roman Catholics. I have met White in the past, and found him curiously disturbing in person. He is a Type A personality whose sole mission in life is to prove himself right before an audience. At his debates, there is the kind of competitive anxiety one usually associates at a football game and not a meeting of Christians, Protestant or Catholic. It did not agree with me. After the debate, he was feted by the usual "groupies" at a local diner where he ate ravenously and unappealingly. I guess spending 3 hours battling other Christians makes one hungry.

[Deo et Patria]

“The Eucharist is a fancy form of idolatry. The Eucharist isn’t merely a symbol of the body and blood of Christ; in Romanism, it becomes the body and blood of Christ, and therefore an object to be worshiped. Worshiping bread and wine is idolatry, regardless of what it symbolizes.”

Idolatry? Sorry, Gamecock, but Jesus could not have been more clear when he explained that his flesh was REAL FOOD and his blood was REAL DRINK. Had he wanted to communicate that the bread and wine was a “symbol”, he had ample opportunity to do so, but yet he does not:

“’Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.’
The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’ So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.’”

John 6:47-58

It’s interesting that many have left the Catholic Church over the years because of this teaching, just as they did in the New Testament (John 6:66). But thankfully, the Catholic Church has held firm to the Truth from her beginning to the present time. May God bless you and help you to understand the Truth.

[Gapplega]

I’ll say a Rosary for this misguided freak.

[gorush]

I was raised Catholic, was an altar boy when they still said the Latin Mass...heck, I can still recite the sucipiot in Latin in spite of embracing agnosticism when I was 14. I like to joke that I fell away because the Latin mass was good for almost 2000 years then they changed it to English three years after I had learned all that Latin in 5th grade.

Christians and atheists are both dead sure about their respective viewpoints. Adherents of different denominations of Christianity are willing to sacrifice their lives to defend their points of view. Either only one of them are correct or none of them are correct...

I don't have the answer, that's why I am agnostic, I am always searching for truth.

Agnostic, strictly defined, is "one who doesn't know", and with regard to the existence and definition of a supreme being, I just don't know.

[MamaB]

I have been sick and have watched more tv than usual. I came across 2 men on EWTN. I was disgusted when they started putting down anyone who was not Catholic. I could never belong to a group like that I had to change the channel.

[pingman]

Yeah; doesn’t the author know that the church leaders waited until 325 AD to convene the Council of Nicaea, so the early Catholic leaders could get their stories straight, choose their authoring apostles, confirm a book they called the Bible, choose their demons and map out a plan to proselytize the world. All for the glory of God, of course!

/S