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Locked on 08/18/2010 1:37:43 PM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
The article does not qualify for a caucus because it mentions the beliefs of non-members. |
Posted on 08/18/2010 9:52:35 AM PDT by TheBattman
Does Purgatory Deny the Sufficiency of Christ's Sacrifice?
by: Matt Slick
According to the Handbook for Today's Catholic, page 47,
"If you die in the love of God but possess any stains of sin, such stains are cleansed away in a purifying process called Purgatory. These stains of sin are primarily the temporal punishment due to venial or mortal sins already forgiven but for which sufficient penance was not done during your lifetime."
The Catholic Catechism, paragraph 1030, says that Purgatory is for "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven."
Among the many doctrines that Catholicism claims to be derived through Sacred Tradition, Purgatory is one of the most interesting and puzzling, particularly to a Protestant. In light of the Pauline doctrine of justification by grace through faith, how is it possible that an afterlife cleansing through punishment is necessary for a Christian who has trusted in Jesus to cleanse him from all His sins? Wasn't Jesus' punishment for our transgressions sufficient? Didn't He take our place in that He suffered our death? It would seem that the words of Christ, "It is finished," (John 19:30) do not mean that the cleansing of our souls was completed on the cross.
Of course, Roman Catholic doctrine states that eternal life is bestowed upon the one who receives baptism (Catechism, par. 1265 - 1266, 1992). It is the stains of the sins committed after baptism and not removed through penance, good works, prayers, the Mass, etc., that are removed in the fires of Purgatory (Handbook for Today's Catholic, page 47).
In light of the doctrine of justification by faith (Rom. 5:1; Rom. 4:5; Rom. 9:30; Acts 13:39; Gal. 2:16), where Jesus bore all of our sins, Purgatory would seem to have no theologically justifiable right to exist. But the Bible alone is not appealed to by Catholic theologians in support of Purgatory. By far, the main support for Purgatory is found in the Catholic doctrine of Sacred Tradition. Nevertheless, what does the Bible say about justification, punishment, and our sins? What is justification by faith?
To justify means acquit, declare righteous, the opposite of condemn. It means to be not guilty of breaking the Law and to be deemed righteous by the standard of the Law.
God gave the Law, i.e, the Ten Commandments. The Law is a reflection of God's character and it is a perfect standard of righteousness which no one can keep. Since no one is able to keep God's Law, no one can be justified by the Law (Rom. 3:20). There is, therefore, none righteous (Rom. 3:10-12). This is the problem of all people. We have all broken God's Law and are in need of justification, of being declared righteous in God's sight. This can only be done through the Messiah, our sin-bearer.
Jesus is the one who took our place on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), became sin on our behalf (2 Cor. 5:21), and turned away the wrath of God from us (Rom. 5:9) by being a propitiation (1 John 2:2) that turned away the wrath of God. He was punished in our place. Therefore, Jesus was our substitution. The righteous work of Christ is imputed to the believer by grace (Titus 3:7) and through faith (Rom. 5:1). This justification is a legal action on the part of God reckoning the believer as having satisfied the Law -- all of the Law.
It necessarily follows that to be justified in God's eyes, is to be fully justified. It is not part of the Law that must be satisfied, but all of it. Perfection is the standard. Likewise, it is not part of our sins that were borne by Christ, but all of them. This justification includes all of the sins of the believer (past, present, and future) or else we could not be justified. What does the Catholic Catechism Say?
The Catholic Catechism (paragraphs 1990-1992) says,
"Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals"...."Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ..." and "...justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy."
Of particular interest is the reference that "justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith." There are many verses in the Bible that deal with baptism and putting on Christ (Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:1-11). This paper is not intended to discuss the nature of baptism. Nevertheless, I strongly affirm that baptism is a covenant sign for the believer who is already justified by faith and for the children of believers who are under the covenant headship of the family. Baptism is not what justifies a person. Rather,
* Justification is a gift by His grace through Jesus (Rom. 3:24) * Justification is by grace (Titus 3:7) * Justification is by faith (Rom. 3:28; 5:1; Gal. 3:24) * Justification is by Jesus' blood (Rom. 5:9). * Justification is in the name of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor. 6:11). * Justification is not equated with baptism, but with grace, faith, and the blood of Jesus.
Jesus said, "It is finished," (John 19:30)
Jesus bore our sins in His body, paid the penalty for them, and died. He said, "It is finished." In Greek, the phrase, "It is finished" is one word, tetelestai. In ancient Greek papyri texts that were receipts for taxes, when a debt was paid in full, the word tetelestai was written on the document. This meant that the debt had been paid in full. In other words, Jesus had finished the work of atonement. But not only atonement (to make amends, to make right), but also of propitiation (turning away God's wrath). He had fully paid the debt invoked by the sinner. There was nothing more to be done... It was finished.
Yet, the doctrine of Purgatory, in effect, is saying that we must suffer in Purgatory for sins not covered by baptism and not covered by the cross. It is to say that the work of Christ is not finished and that there are things we must do to complete the sacrificial, cleansing work of Christ. This amounts to earning heaven by our good works, albeit a work of suffering. Additionally, the doctrine of Purgatory implies that a person must atone for his own sins. It implies that the person must do more than what the Law of God requires of him. This is called supererogation.
When Jesus said, "It is finished," all that was necessary in the atonement was concluded and all in Christ were justified. We cannot complete or add to Christ's work through our suffering. Purgatory is not only unnecessary, but it contradicts God's Word.
Good. Now please ask yourself, what happens if you sin to a greater or lesser degree just before death.
Please consider the following cases:
a) You are a great Christian, but you are angry with someone, don't forgive them, and then you are run over by a car.
b) You are a great Christian, but you are angry with someone, and you set fire to their dog, and then you are run over by a car.
c) You are a great Christian, but you are angry with someone, and you murder them, and then, you know, splat.
In each case - what happens? Are the results in each case all exactly the same?
The reality is that in cases a) and b) you would arrive before the beatific vision of God, but the (arguably) minor sins you carried with you would have injured your soul to a greater or lesser extent. God would heal you of the effect of these venial sins, but the process would hurt. (See Luke and Corinthians above).
And in case c) you would have committed a mortal sin right before death. You broke your soul and are now beyond the time of repentance: hell is your likely reward. In such a situation it would be vain to protest that Christ died for you, so your sins somehow dont matter you would have rejected God.
As a “reformed” and a “non-Catholic”, i dont think this should be a caucus...
The very believers in this topic have been shut out...
Why dont you open it up to all ???
I found this one pretty easily.
This thread attacks the non-Catholic view of communion and indicates that non-Catholic Christians are not "fit" to participate in communion in a Catholic church. Therefore, give the logic expressed here by Catholics, one can easily argue that the thread at the link does not qualify as a caucus.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2571404/posts
If the Catholics here agree that discussion of their beliefs disqualifies this as a caucus thread, then I'm sure you won't mind my going to the link above and expressing my non-Catholic views - right?
He didn't, however, destroy our free will, nor remove our ability to reject Him.
It is Pharisaical - and damnable - to believe that our sins somehow don't matter because 'we are saved'. Our sins do matter, and we must repent of them. We are not saved yet. We are being saved.
God indeed saves us and absolves us. But He will not pre-empt our Free Will, and will not save us against our will. Until we are safe with Him in heaven we can still turn against Him and injure - or even destroy - our souls.
Jesus died for that sin as well as any other I may commit. I will go immediately to heaven (assuming the car has killed me).
b) You are a great Christian, but you are angry with someone, and you set fire to their dog, and then you are run over by a car.
Well, I would never do this, but for purposes of argument - again, Jesus died for this sin as well as any others I may commit. I would go immediately to heaven.
c) You are a great Christian, but you are angry with someone, and you murder them, and then, you know, splat.
Same as the answer to b.
In each case - what happens? Are the results in each case all exactly the same?
Yes, because the blood of Jesus is sufficient. He said, "It is finished" or "tetelestai" (meaning the debt is paid - I believe that's spelled correctly). At any rate, I know I could not save myself by doing "stuff" to begin with, so why would I think I can keep myself saved by doing "stuff"?
As Christians we do "stuff", but it is because of the Holy Spirit within us, not because we are trying to do something now that we never had the power to do in the first place.
No.
Of course, but His physical flesh was human. After all, God is spirit, as scripture says.
So how is this any different than a typical [reformed/non-catholic] church service? I thought their purpose in life was to prove that they weren’t [catholic].
My vote is that the [caucus] label should stand. It says more about them than it does about us.
RM, please delete this post and all posts by Catholics on this thread. Thanks.
“You do believe that Jesus Christ was fully God and fully human, do you not? Please show me where that doctrine/teaching appears in God’s Word.”
“...they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US.”
—MATTHEW 1:23
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1
the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14
God is the first and the last.
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4
Jesus is the first and the last.
Jesus said, “Fear not; I am the first and the last:” Revelation 1:17
God is the only Saviour.
“I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” Isaiah 43:11
...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14
Indeed, as a remembrance and to identify us as belonging to Him, not to save us. He did that through His sacrifice. (Of course, I know Catholics have a different belief on that issue.)
ooohh...Could it possibly be a strawman just caught fire? LOL!!
So ... I could commit murder an hour before my death, and die impenitent, even cursing God and that's OK. I'm going to heaven. Because Christ died for my sins.
Why then trouble to follow a single commandment? After all, 'Christ died for my sins'. I can be the most heinous serial killer, and spit in the eye of the Priest at my execution. Its all good, because - hey - 'Christ died for my sins'.
I hope, thus baldly stated, that this kind of 'faith' can be seen to be as crazy and as hellish as that of any death cultist.
We must repent of our sins, and also stop doing them. Christ saves us and frees us of our sins, and is always ready to forgive us. But we must will it, we must cooperate with our salvation. It doesn't happen despite ourselves.
Hope this was helpful.
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not us." -- 1 John 1:8
The miracle of Christianity is that while we are yet sinners Jesus Christ covers us in His righteousness and His obedience and His good work on the cross so that we can stand before the throne of judgment acquitted of our sins by Christ taking on the punishment rightly due us.
Here's a great link which explains the difference between the Protestant, Scriptural understanding of justification and Rome's error which not only leads men into anxiety and fear (since no man can obey the law perfectly) but also paves the way for the anti-Scriptural, grace-denying fever dream of purgatory...
The Bible teaches that God accepts men solely on the merits of Jesus Christ (Rom. 3:21-4:8; Phil. 3:8-9). Men are declared righteous because their guilt is imputed to Christ on the cross, and Christs perfect righteousness is imputed to the believers account. Romanism teaches that grace is infused into man and that people are justified only after becoming righteous. Justification is subjective; it is the internal renovation and renewing of man. Men are justified because of what the Holy Spirit does in them. Justification means that man himself is made justmade pleasing to God in his own person.... A devout Catholic may say: Righteousness by faith means that I cannot save myself, but by faith I can receive Gods transforming grace. His grace can change my heart, and by His grace in my heart I can be acceptable in His sight.... The focal point of Catholic theology is Gods work of grace within human experience.59 The Scriptures teach that justification is an instantaneous act of God. It is whole, never repeated, eternal and perfect, not piecemeal or gradual (Jn. 5:25; Lk. 18:13, 14; 23:43; Rom. 4:5; 5:1; 8:3-8). Romanism teaches that justification is a gradual process which may not even be completed in this life. It usually is completed by the tortures of purgatory.60 The Bible teaches that sinners are saved solely because of what God has done in Jesus Christ. Papal doctrine affirms that justification is a cooperative effort between God and man. Man must cooperate with inward grace until he achieves justification. The Roman Catholic believes that good works contribute to his salvation. However, he would argue that since these good works flow from inward grace, that ultimately he is saved by grace and not by works. Romanism is the most clever attempt of man to take a religion of human merit, works-righteousness and personal achievement and dress it with the terminology of grace. Romanism teaches the most subtle form of the doctrine of justification by works that has yet appeared, or that can appear. For the doctrines of Trent do not teach, in their canonical statements, that man is justified and accepted at the bar of justice by his law. This is, indeed, the doctrine that prevails in the common practice of the papal church, but it is not the form in which it appears in the Tridentine canons. According to these, man is justified by an inward and spiritual act which is denominated the act of faith; by a truly divine and holy habit or principle infused by the gracious working of the Holy Spirit. The ground of the sinners justification is thus a divine and gracious one. God works in the sinful soul to will and to do, and by making it inherently just justifies it. And all this is accomplished through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ; so that, in justification there is a combination of the objective work of Christ with the subjective character of the believer.61 Protestants who are not aware of these subtleties are often tongue-tied in debates with knowledgeable Roman Catholics, because Romanists insist they do not believe in salvation by works-righteousness. They simply assert that God is the author of infused grace and inherent righteousness. The Romish system is easily exposed as a doctrine of demons when one considers that their theory of an inward infused grace in the heart as a second pillar of justification clearly means that they regard the death of Christ as insufficient for pardon. For them Christ alone is not enough. Jesus, according to their statements of faith, did not perfectly satisfy Gods justice by His life and death. Romanism is in reality a cleverly disguised form of humanism. The Protestant trusts Christ to save him and the Roman Catholic trusts Christ to help him save himself.62The Roman Catholic looks at what Christ accomplished as something that enables a person to begin a long journey that possibly leads to salvation. The Protestant looks to Christ and His merits as salvation itself. Good works prove that justification has already occurred. They do not contribute one iota toward salvation.63... ... The Bible teaches that justification is a legal declaration of God in heaven regarding the sinner who believes on earth. Justification is objective. The Romanist confounds the doctrine of justification with sanctification. The Tridentine theory makes inward holiness in conjunction with the merits of Christ the ground of justification. It founds human salvation upon two corner-stones.... The unintentional confounding of the distinction between justification and sanctification, which appears occasionally in the Patristic writers, becomes a deliberate and unemphatic identification, in the scheme of the Papal church.58
It appears that Catholics ARE! Which means, while they're technically violating the religious thread rules, no one is moderating and enforcing those rules on THIS thread (though Dutchboy88 tried to enforce the rule in post number 62).
What it would hurt is that it's just making a sham of the whole caucus process. That puts a big gray area on what was up to this point cut and dry.
Either drop the caucus status, or delete the Catholic replies.
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