Radio Replies Second Volume - The Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church

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[GonzoII]

The Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church

477. Rome's claim to interpretative authority, based on an obviously doctored text of the Bible can only appeal to those who have not heard the voice of the true Shepherd.

It used to be the Protestant tradition that the Catholic religion is opposed to the Bible. Now when a man has that fixed idea firmly embedded in his mind, he gets a shock when he hears the Bible quoted in favor of Catholicism. The stronger the texts are, the greater his shock. But some people never dream that they may have been laboring under a delusion. They refuse to entertain the idea that they have been wrong all their lives. The texts quoted seem to point to Catholicism all right, but to them it simply cannot be true. So they seek an excuse for not believing what they cannot refute. Every text which seems to favor Catholicism cannot mean what it says, but must obviously be "doctored." And they are so sure that they alone are truly guided by God that anyone impressed by the case for the Catholic religion must be regarded as not having heard the voice of the true Shepherd!

478. Other Churches claim to have given the Bible equal study, and claim equal value for their interpretation.

Since no non-Catholic Churches claim to be infallible, but admit their constant liability to error, they cannot even claim equal value for their interpretations. Moreover, apart from their divergence from the Catholic interpretation, they differ amongst themselves. That would not be, had they all equally arrived at the correct sense of the Bible. As a matter of fact, all practically nullify the claims of each as a reliable guide to the meaning of Scripture.

479. Protestantism and Catholicism are founded on the same basic principles, their differences being due to different interpretations of the Bible.

They are not founded on the same basic principles. In basic principles they are diametrically opposed. What is the basic principle of Protestantism? It is belief in what one thinks the Bible to mean. If a man thinks the Bible to support this or that doctrine, then it surely does so; for he cannot imagine that he might be wrong. He makes an act of faith in his own judgment. But the Catholic basic principle is very different. Instead of deciding for himself what is or is not the teaching of Christ, the Catholic is taught that teaching by the Catholic Church. He knows that his own judgment is quite likely to be wrong, but that the Catholic Church cannot be wrong. How different are the basic principles of the two religions can be judged from results. For the Protestant principle leads to endless diversity, while the Catholic principle leads to a world-wide and international unity.

480. But the Catholic believes in the Catholic Church because he thinks the Bible supports it.

That is not so. The Bible does support it, of course. But even if he never saw a Bible, the Catholic would have sufficient ground for his judgment. He knows that the Catholic priest does not preach merely his own opinions, as does the Protestant minister. He knows that his Church is not a particular sect, but a vast united universal Apostolic Church, whose history shows the allegiance of innumerable saints and martyrs. And such a Church is impossible to account for by merely human forces. It is God's work on the very face of it. Merely human institutions have always tended to fluctuation, change, and disintegration. Empires have crumbled. No human being can get even one nation to agree, say, on political matters. How could a mere man persuade over 400 millions drawn from all nations to agree on religious matters — millions who differ on almost every other conceivable subject? The Catholic has reasonable grounds for his acceptance of the Church as the teacher of mankind in religious matters; and he submits to her authoritative teaching in matters of faith and morals, rather than decide for himself what the Bible must mean.

481. My point is, since Protestantism and Catholicism differ as to what the Bible means, who is to say which is right?

On Protestant principles, there is no one who could do so. And that is the basic fallacy of Protestantism. It offers no certainty, and can offer no certainty, as to what God does really teach. Yet it is essential that in so grave a matter we should have certainty. The Catholic Church alone can give it.

482. If you quote the Bible, the Protestant will quote the Bible; so we are back to our point of view of the Bible, and there is no means of deciding the issue.

For a Catholic the issue does not depend on the Bible, even though the Bible does corroborate Catholicism. No Protestant can prove his beliefs from the Bible, or even that they ought to be proved from the Bible. You say that Protestants cannot prove their position, and that Catholics cannot prove theirs. It's a matter of conjecture and opinion. Protestants may be right or Catholics may be right. Neither has proof, and we must be content to do without proof. I admit that that is the logical result of the Protestant principles on which you argue; and for that reason Protestantism must end in uncertainty and doubt. That in itself should be enough to prove that it cannot be the religion of Christ.

483. How will the problem be solved?

Only by abandoning the Protestant principle of personal and private judgment, and accepting the doctrines taught clearly and definitely by the Catholic Church. She is the only tribunal in the world with authority from God to teach all nations, and endowed with infallibility in order that she may not lead men into error. And for two thousand years she has both fulfilled and proved her mission under the protection and guidance of the Holy Ghost.

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[ansel12]

Byzantium, the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, Renaissance Italy were all great nations much like the United States came to be politically, survived for much longer that the United States has so far done, and gave the world the cultural treasure beyond comparison to the post-reformation cultural decadence that passes for modern culture. All these were institutionally Catholic.

It is also true that over time America became more Catholic, and now we see disintegration of Protestatism and ascendance of Catholicism as the only consistent voice in defense of human dignity, right to life, right to practice religion publicly, and right to local governance. Funny how things turn around.

I see that you have never learned how special and unique America is and what makes it the greatest nation in history. I have learned that many Catholics are not big fans of early America. Before I joined FR, I never knew how much Catholics did not like the United States, and saw it as something that needed to made more European and similar to the old Catholic Europe

Catholics are a democrat voting block that elected Obama and have driven this nation to the left and has manipulated a colonization of America by the third world and liberal, pro-abortion, Catholic voters, they are not a force of conservatism, but of the left. On threads like this it often comes to seem that Catholics are at war with Protestant America and are in service to a foreign, global mentality

Even on something that they are supposed to be conservative on, abortion, they elect pro-abortion politicians. Obama is the most pro-abortion President ever elected and Catholics did it.

[ansel12]

America and conservatism are also important but I freely admit that I do not confuse either one with Protestantism. You apparently do.

LOL, yes, because it is measured by how they vote, Catholics are a very dependable liberal voting block and Protestants are an incredibly dependable conservative voting block.

Aren't you even curious about who has been creating liberal democrat governments for generations?

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Aren’t you even curious about who has been creating liberal democrat governments for generations?”

Liberal Democrats create them.

[ansel12]

Liberal Democrats create them.

Exactly, the Democrat base is Catholic, the Republican base is Protestant.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“Exactly, the Democrat base is Catholic, the Republican base is Protestant.”

Actually the Democrat base is Democrats - many of them are Catholics. The Republican base is Republicans - many of them are Protestants.

[annalex]

I completely agree with you that the Catholics voting for pro-abort politicians is a sorry scandal, and points to the sick condition of the American Church. I have no way to verify your graphic, but if there is one Catholic advancing the culture of death in America that is one Catholic too many.

With the rest, I pretty much disagree.

There is nothing in my post to indicate that I am not a “big fan of early America”. May be there are some, I don’t know. I simply point out that great as early America was, it is no longer, while there were many great Catholic nations in the past that lasted a very long time and left and admirable legacy. I listed some of them.

The American Catholics were a reliable Democrat block before the Democrat party went off the deep end with their satanic cultural policy. We are less and less so, even though the Bush presidency gave Catholics nothing to be excited about. I happen to be an economic paleo-libertarian and so would not personally go anywhere near Democrat economic philosophy, but the Church in general has no position on the economic issues that divide (less and less, I might say) the two parties. So you will see some Catholic support big government nanny state and that has nothing to do with them being Catholic, and so is beside the point here.

Of course, there is no shortage of liberal Protestants of any description. We have Protestant churches of the kind where Rev Wright, Obama’s pal is preaching, and the kind that calls abortion a great blessing, and the kind that would bless gay “marriages”, and the kind that would bless marriage after divorce, and of course every Protestant church has nothing to say about contraception whatsoever. You may have a solid conservative contingent — God bless you for that — but you also have cultural liberalism not merely among the flock but preached from the pulpit.

Further, Protestantism is a liberal idea to begin with. The entire notion that one can open the Bible, find verses in there that he likes and start his own church preaching that — is foundational liberalism. It is ironic to see a Protestant, whose movement was born in protesting the authority of the Church at every corner, now tell me how sad it is that the American Catholic Church does not exercise enough authority to crack down on our liberal wing. Get your own jeremiah wrights, gene robinsons, joel olsteens out of your own eye first.

[ansel12]

Of course, there is no shortage of liberal Protestants of any description. And America's greatness far exceeds those nations and empires that you mentioned, power, ruthlessness, and longevity are not the measures.

[ansel12]

Of course, there is no shortage of liberal Protestants of any description.

Evidently there is a big enough shortage that Protestants voting majority democrat is extremely rare, so yes, there definitely is a shortage (as far as democrats are concerned), that is why the immigration laws had to be changed to replace Americans with Mexicans and Latin Americans.

And America's greatness far exceeds those nations and empires that you mentioned, power, ruthlessness, and longevity are not the measures.

[annalex]

Att his point, America is an overstretched empire repopulating itself with foreigners and at the verge of bankruptcy. America was great intil it became that, and yes, Protestantism had a lot to do with both her greatness and her present decline. History will judge America's contribution to mankind. The Catholic culture that Byzantium, the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, or Renaissance produced would however be hard to beat.

Below are three random samples.

The Savior

6c
St. Catherine, Mt. Sinai



Crucifixion Triptych

Rogier van der Weyden

c. 1445
Oil on oak panel, 101 x 70 cm (central panel), 101 x 35 cm (each wing)
Kunsthistorisches Museum, Vienna



Madonna del Cardellino

Raffaello

1507
Oil on wood, 107 x 77 cm
Galleria degli Uffizi, Florence

[ansel12]

Amazing, it is like talking to the borg, America needs to be absorbed and made like old European nations, in other words, destroyed, overcome, in your Catholic reality.

I can see why Catholics make up the voting base of the American left and have going back as far as I can find, conservatives need to read posts like yours and understand why Catholics elect people like Obama, and why the Kennedys are Catholic royalty, and why they changed immigration.

[annalex]

On a thread dedicated to the teaching authority of the Catholic church you keep talking about the decreasing number of Catholics who vote Democrat. Perhaps the Church should exercise more authority. I’d be very happy if she did.

Regardless the old European nations, I simply showed false your ridiculous statement that America is the only country that ever accomplished anything.

[ansel12]

LOL, I never said anything about other nations and empires never accomplishing anything, even the Romans and the USSR did that no matter how brutal and violent, I merely said that America is the greatest nation ever created, it has been the light among nations, nothing like it has ever existed.

[ansel12]

By the way, after looking at the history of the left in America, I think it is clear that the Catholic Church knows very well how it is influencing it’s people to vote, and in which party to support. They got a coup with those immigration laws of the last 45 years.

[annalex]

IF by “greatest” you mean “I like it very much”, I agree. So do I, or I wouldn’t be here. But by any objective measure the greatest nation that lights others should be both lasting, and have a cultural impact that outlives it. In the case of the Roman Empire it is true: it gave us much upon which Christian Middle Ages could build. In the case if the USSR it is not true: that was an empire build on violence, that persecuted brutally its own people, invaded others and crumbled after existing for miserable 70 years. Its lasting cultural impact is coasting on the achievements of Imperial Russia, whcih was Orthodox and therefore authentically Catholic Christian.

But I gave you three examples that were not militaristic, were profoundly, institutionally Catholic and existed for many centuries.

There is one area where America could give a lesson to the world. That is the value of local self-government and free enterprise (Renaissance Italy and Holy Roman Empire had the same values, but their impact is diminished by the fact that they existed in pre-industrial age). Unfortunately, the Civil War, 20 c. imperial militarism, destruction of local government by Congress and the Supreme Court, exporting our industrial base to southeast Asia, and now the financial near-collapse and fiscal insolvency — all taught the opposite.

The Catholic Church will always teach charity to strangers, and so she will always welcome the poor immigrant. But it is not the Church that made immigration laws and then did not enforce them, it is not the Church that created the Social Security system , which destroys multigenerational fecund family thus making mass immigration an economic necessity, and it is not the Church that invented farm subsidies and social safety net that ensured the American agriculture’s dependence on the cheap Mexican laborer. It is not the Church that removed ethnicity from consideration in immigration policy; it is not the Church that invented H1B visas while ensuring American universities cannot produce enough capable engineering workforce.

America would do very well if she returns to the cultural values she had prior to 1950s, political system that she had prior to the 16 amendment, foreign policies prior to 1917, and industrial policies of 19c. If she does, she will ensure American greatness for centuries to come. If she does not, she will attach a huge question mark to the classic American values that the freedom loving people will struggle to erase, also for centuries.

I am Catholic, I live with hope. I know my Church will do fine.

[annalex]

Yesterday a judge (appointed by a Protestant Republican) declared a constitutional amendment unconstitutional. Make a light among nations story out of that, please.

[ansel12]

I can see now how such a petty and bigoted thinker can also be so anti-American, it explains why Catholics vote Democrat and elect the people (like Obama), that they do, this is some kind of war against America for many of you.

Evidently many Catholics see America as something that has to conquered, I knew that the illegal Catholics believed that but I would never have guessed that it was also prevalent among Catholics that I thought were fellow Americans.

[annalex]

I can see plenty of “war against America” going on, — the overturning of Prop 8 (popularly enacted ban on gay marriage in CA) is one episode of it, — but where do you see the Catholic Church anti-American? The Church is against gay so-called marriage squarely.

I am asking you to explain how can “the greatest nation ever created” allow itself to be ruled by the gay lobby.

[ansel12]

You need to see things as left and right, Protestants vote right, but Catholics vote left.

The gay lobby is part of the Democrat party, as are the Catholics, your mocking of America is just another symbol of what most Catholics think of America, no wonder that the majority of Catholics voted Obama and that millions talk about when they can bring us down and remake us.

[annalex]

I do see things as left and right. This is why I am Catholic.

Where did I “mock America?”

[ansel12]

Then find out what makes the majority of people that share your faith, support abortion and homosexuality, and illegal immigration and vote for the liberal party, and try to get them to vote Republican instead.