Ex-Evangelical Protestant dissects conflict with Catholics

The Record ^ | Wednesday, 21 July 2010 | Anthony Barich

[GonzoII]

Evangelical Protestants are taught to recruit Catholics by exploiting their lack of Bible knowledge, but use Scripture out of context to make Catholic beliefs look flawed.

This is the claim of Catholic apologist Steve Ray, in Perth from the United States of America earlier this month as part of a national tour. Mr Ray used to take on this role.

“We were trained to evangelise Catholics – we believed you are not saved, that you are going to hell as you follow the Pope instead of Jesus, you pray to Mary instead of God, you have tradition instead of Scripture, you thought you got saved by doing good works instead of by faith in Jesus,” he told about 60 people on Thursday, 8 July, at Trinity College, East Perth.

“It was our job to get you saved and become real Bible Christians. This is what Evangelicals think – most of them, even in Australia.”

He said that he was taught the right questions to ask and memorised up to 15 verses that “were good to use with Catholics”.

Mr Ray, married to Janet for 33 years with four children, said he and his wife went from being “anti-Catholic Baptists” to “crossing an uncrossable chasm and becoming Catholics”.

The Rays were not alone. They opened their home for two years to people seeking to discuss their differences with Catholics and explained why they converted, “even if people hated Catholics”.

In that time, Mr Ray said over 200 people joined the Catholic Church.

Addressing several key issues that cause the at-times vicious divide, especially in the United States, between Protestants and Catholics, Mr Ray said he achieved “great success” by asking carefully selected questions and backing them up with isolated Scripture quotes.

[Cronos]

you hit the nail on the head — Mary was obedient and followed her Son to be at the foot of the Cross. God values this simple faith, simple obedience.

[mas cerveza por favor]

Protestants have been deceived into the believing that obedience is not really possible and therefore not worth attempting. Mary’s faithfulness is resented because it serves as a reproach.

[presently no screen name]

It is you who falsely represent what Jesus said about Mary.

Get a grip!! Those where the words of Jesus. Because they don't fit in with the RCC heresy - to you, even Jesus' own words are wrong.

ONLY Jesus is worthy of praise. Personally, I couldn't give a flip who worships her and that the RCC and it's subject don't hear and obey what Jesus says. Some people need to learn the hard way - and they can never say 'they didn't hear the TRUTH'. After all, narrow is the gate and few enter in.

So, I'm not surprised Catholics continued with The RCC's heresy teachings because that Scripture is a given - it will be fulfilled. It's not what anyone 'thinks' but what Jesus says is Truth according to His Kingdom.

[mas cerveza por favor]

You get a grip. Those words include Mary. They do not exclude her. Is that what you are claiming?

[presently no screen name]

It is not saying Mary wasn't blessed - Jesus was saying ALL those that hear and obey ARE blessed. No special kudos to Mary! So you can take her off the pedestal. NO MAN/WOMAN is on a pedestal in God's Kingdom! His Ways are not your ways - so lean not unto your own understanding on the things of God.

In Luke 7:28, Jesus declared John the Baptist to be the greatest man to have ever lived: "I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John ..."

[mas cerveza por favor]

Again, you quote way out of context. The verse actually says "there is not a greater prophet that John the Baptist. But he that is the lesser in the kingdom of God, is greater than he."

Do you believe John the Baptist was greater than Jesus? If the verse does not diminish Jesus, why should it diminish Mary?

[presently no screen name]

you quote way out of context.

AGAIN, according to YOU - Jesus' OWN words are 'out of context'. It was to point out who Jesus says is the greatest, John the Baptist. I didn't dare go further because of your lack of understanding. And you proved me right with this....

Do you believe John the Baptist was greater than Jesus?

What nonsense! JESUS was NOT talking about Himself.

Mary was not included - He mentions John as the greatest and those in His Kingdom even greater. No man/woman is top dog in God's Kingdom. Keep Mary on your 'man-made co-anything' pedestal and your Pope on his 'man-made kiss the ring infallible' throne but they are NOT a part of God's Kingdom. Mary was a servant, like Moses, like Joseph, like Abraham, like Stephen, like Peter, etc., etc. - nothing more. Only in 'man's' eyes is some one greater.

Get Spirit filled. What you/your church 'thinks' doesn't cut it with the things of God.

1 Cor 2:14: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

[evangmlw]

Just like the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus day. You lead them into false doctrine, molest their children, and make them children of hell rather than setting free as you promise. You’re no different from the most religious folk of Jesus day. They stuck to their religion, their traditions, and man made laws. They died in their sin because their religion nor their church could save them.

[mas cerveza por favor]

Do you believe John the Baptist was greater than Jesus?

What nonsense! JESUS was NOT talking about Himself.

Yes, obviously, but He did speak of "those that are born of women" and you applied that to Mary but not Him.

No man/woman is top dog in God's Kingdom.

Was this a Protestant-style, private revelation? You attack Catholic teaching on Mary based upon the idea that there is no human "top dog" in heaven. Please cite the authority for your assertion.

[presently no screen name]

Was this a Protestant-style, private revelation?

I'm not into labeling as Catholics are. It's not private revelation - it's spiritually discerned!

Please cite the authority for your assertion.

God's Word, ALL THE TIME, EVERY TIME.

[mas cerveza por favor]

Your speculative “discernment” does not take precedence over Church teaching. Since you cannot provide biblical citation for your assertion, you should not represent it as authoritative in a public forum.

[presently no screen name]

Your speculative “discernment” does not take precedence over Church teaching.

Since you ignore the Holy Spirit and insert 'speculative' - You have taken precedence over God's Word. And I gave you Scripture. So here are your words back to you.

Since you cannot provide biblical citation for your assertion, you should not represent it as authoritative in a public forum.

CHURCH teaching has NO precedence over God's KINGDOM! And it is NOT part of HIS KINGDOM/HIS WORD.

God's Word ALL THE TIME, EVERY TIME. 'May God's Word be true and every man a liar'.

[mas cerveza por favor]

Nowhere in sacred scripture does it guarantee that your personal discernment is from the Holy Spirit.

Since you cannot provide biblical citation for your assertion, you should not represent it as authoritative in a public forum. CHURCH teaching has NO precedence over God's KINGDOM! And it is NOT part of HIS KINGDOM/HIS WORD.

Matthew 16:19: And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

2 Thessalonians 2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

The Church is the duly appointed representative of God's Kingdom on earth.

[presently no screen name]

The Church is the duly appointed representative of God's Kingdom on earth.

Jesus is the HEAD of HIS Church and Spirit-filled Christians are HIS Church/His Body according to HIS WORD ONLY. Pure!

That's my last post to you on this subject. You rant on with the RCC's heresy and I'll walk on the narrow path.

Keep the RCC church's Mary on the man made throne it designed for her and your pope on his kiss the ring throne - enjoy it's heresy and the wide gate.

[mas cerveza por favor]

This is a fact proven by scripture and accepted by all serious religious and secular historians: Jesus founded the Church through His Apostles and their chosen successors. He guaranteed it would not be defeated by the gates of Hell.

"I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me."

[Cronos]

Yes, all the fake pastors and "preachers" who are just con-men lead the people of God into false doctrine and make them children of hell

So-called pastors like you are in mortal danger like Arius or others who deny Christ

Yes, the proof will be in the pudding on judgement day when Christ looks at His Church which HE has protected for 2000 years with the Holy Spirit's grace and then looks at all the false pastors acting like wolves among Christ's flock

These false pastors who attack Christ's One Holy Apostolic Ctholic Church shall have the hottest fires of hell waiting for them.

You shall know them by their fruit --> the Church has been instrumental in the conversion of Europe, AFrica, Asia and the Americas. In contrast, what have these fake pastoros done?

They think that they have "spent enough time in God's Word over the past 30 years" and they "get the power" --> they are no more than charlatans, just like the creators of the Moonies, the Scientologists, etc. -- CHARLATANS, Con-Men.

The doctrines of these man-made gurus or pastors are indicative of their man-made nature as opposed to the Christ-made and developed nature of the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church

Muslims and the followers of these false pastors both follow flawed men.

True Christians follow the teachings of Christ as handed down through His Apostles to His Apostolic Church (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental, Assyrian) and to those that hold to orthodox teaching like Orthodox Anglicans and Lutherans and Methodists.

Fake pastors are leading their followers into heresy, just like Arius did, just like MArcius did.


Why do you stick in your own man-made religion you founded? Return to CHRIST's Church, the ONE Holy Apostolic Catholic CHurch

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[Cronos]

Yes, all the fake pastors and "preachers" who are just con-men lead the people of God into false doctrine and make them children of hell

So-called pastors are in mortal danger like Arius or others who deny Christ

Yes, the proof will be in the pudding on judgement day when Christ looks at His Church which HE has protected for 2000 years with the Holy Spirit's grace and then looks at all the false pastors acting like wolves among Christ's flock

These false pastors who attack Christ's One Holy Apostolic Ctholic Church shall have the hottest fires of hell waiting for them.

You shall know them by their fruit --> the Church has been instrumental in the conversion of Europe, AFrica, Asia and the Americas. In contrast, what have these fake pastoros done?

They think that they have "spent enough time in God's Word over the past 30 years" and they "get the power" --> they are no more than charlatans, just like the creators of the Moonies, the Scientologists, etc. -- CHARLATANS, Con-Men.

The doctrines of these man-made gurus or pastors are indicative of their man-made nature as opposed to the Christ-made and developed nature of the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church

Muslims and the followers of these false pastors both follow flawed men.

True Christians follow the teachings of Christ as handed down through His Apostles to His Apostolic Church (Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental, Assyrian) and to those that hold to orthodox teaching like Orthodox Anglicans and Lutherans and Methodists.

Fake pastors are leading their followers into heresy, just like Arius did, just like MArcius did.


Why do you stick in this non-Church man-made religion founded by men? Return to CHRIST's Church, the ONE Holy Apostolic Catholic CHurch

[Cronos]

Our son is in the Seminary.

You and your wife are blessed. Congratulations!

[Cronos]

“The big thing that shocked me was their attitude toward education. Less was better. My wife was welcome and given the job of childcare during services. I have a bachelor’s degree and it was made clear I wasn’t welcome.” —> Interesting. Did you ever find out why exactly? Apologies if you have already answered this later on in the thread.