Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Are you implying that God the Son cannot rebuke His mother without sinning?
Clearly, the verses being used are there to address fears that someone or something outside can affect our relationship with Christ. Nothing that someone or something else does can affect our relationship with Christ. This is superior to the Moslem faith where e.g., you can lose 'heaven' if you are buried covered in pig offal.
It is also just as clear that we can walk away from our salvation.
Hebrews 6:3-6 - "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
Matthew 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
Taking verses out-of-context doesn't help believers understand their true standing. Invoking the 'well they weren't really saved anyway' argument doesn't help either. It just turns your argument into a fallacy. Better to face the truth that you can (and some will) lose their salvation by turning away from the truth. Grow up, please.
I don’t see it as a rebuke, but yes, if I rebuke my mother, I’m not honoring her.
Further, the word used before, “disrespect”, IMHO, reveals the interpretation desired, and it is definitely not honor.
"Believers are sealed by the Holy Spirt at the moment of salvation. We are sealed unto the day of redemption. Meaning, we cannot unseal anything. It's there, until it is redeemed. By Christ. We are His."
A seal, in Biblical times, was a mark, a sigil, a signature attesting to the truth of a document or other object. It is not a Ziplock baggie presenting an impenetrable barrier between a person and everything else. The translation does not do the intent correctly.
Clearly, the verses being used are there to address fears that someone or something outside can affect our relationship with Christ. Nothing that someone or something else does can affect our relationship with Christ. This is superior to the Moslem faith where e.g., you can lose 'heaven' if you are buried covered in pig offal.
Correct. Nobody can snatch you from God's hand. But you sure can wander away, just like the sheep that Jesus referred to so many times.
Taking verses out-of-context doesn't help believers understand their true standing. Invoking the 'well they weren't really saved anyway' argument doesn't help either. It just turns your argument into a fallacy. Better to face the truth that you can (and some will) lose their salvation by turning away from the truth. Grow up, please.
The OSAS belief has tremendous emotional appeal and the tenacity of this belief over Scriptural evidence to the contrary is evidence of the attractiveness of its appeal.
And that's not uncommon especially with religions that tell you that you can lose your salvation...
But regardless of how many times you ask the Lord to save you, it only takes one time...
If I work at it, I can see that you are saying something like, “If you have to ask if you are saved, you aren’t.”
It's more like; if you don't know what being saved is, you apparently don't understand salvation...
But there are ample texts which SEEM to propose the idea that one could be like St. Paul and still lose out at the end; one could call on the name of the Lord but still be denied by Him at the end; one could be summoned before Him and be sent away not on the basis of ‘faith’ but on thee mercy shown to the least of His brethren.
I agree with you...And I apparently am one of the few who believes the scriptures are clear that salvation can be lost and works are necessary in one dispensation while in another dispensation (the church age), we are eternally secure in our salvation, with works of any kind...
Such folks to not FEEL assurance.
One must be careful when depending on 'feelings'...And certainly Satan will attack anyone's knowledge of eternal security...That's why we are to constantly be on guard with the Sword of the Spirit which is the word of God...
So, you are accusing Jesus of sin?
The apostle John appears to have in view an unsaved man who professes to be a believer, but who is in actuality in need of salvation. On the one hand, John refers to a man who is sinning but is not doing so to the point of the impossibility of being granted eternal life; he has not yet come to the place where the possibility of divine forgiveness has been revoked. In such cases, as a result of the intercessory prayer of a "brother," God would grant spiritual life. On the other hand, the apostle asserts that if a man does sin to such an extent that repentance and forgiveness is impossible, it would be "unto death"`spiritual death, spiritual death in the sense that his condition is irrevocable (cf. Matt 12:31-32). Thus the sin can be committed by a Christian when "Chris-tian" is used in the broader sense to include those whose Christianity is merely a matter of profession, but it cannot if "Christian" means one who has actually been regenerated.
It is clear that "brother" in Scripture normally refers to a saved individual, but John's usage of the term implies that in some cases there will be a difference between what is professed and what is actually true.
Furthermore, experience has vividly illustrated the power of God to regenerate the most reprobate of sinners, and therefore the believer should be careful not to judge the status of another too quickly. Nevertheless, John asserts that the habitual practice of sin does indicate the spiritual state of a man (cf. Gal 5:21). Consequently, while the believer is to pray for this sinning brother until God reveals otherwise, John reminds him that the efficacy of his prayer may not extend to that person and that the believer's confidence should not be diminished thereby.
This is not an adumbration of the Roman Catholic doctrine regarding mortal sin, for which the consequence is spiritual death (unless it is reversed during this lifetime through confession and penance or after this lifetime while in purgatory through the efforts of relatives still alive). On the contrary, it only maintains that, in keeping with the Johannine theme, persistent sin in the life of anyone who professes to be saved indicates that he is not saved, and that the ultimate end of such is spiritual death. Although acts of sin do not cause one to die spiritually (man is born spiritually dead), the habitual practice of sin may lead to an irreversible state, a condition in which forgiveness will be no longer available. The limitation has only to do with the unbeliever, however, for the believer's full forgiveness was procured by the death of Christ at Calvary.
http://www.biblebb.com/files/j90-11-1.htm
Sometimes they forget and say what they really believe
And this is not the dispensation of GourmetDan. Based on faith and works for salvation. We are not in the Dispensation of Law or the Kingdom, GourmetDan. We are in the Dispensation of the Grace of God. You will find it from Romans through Philemon. That is where you will find your salvation, GourmetDan. Unless you wish to be under the law to establish your righteousness before God.
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." (ROm. 4:4). God is the debtor to your works of righteousness, done to keep your salvation? I don't think so.
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Rom. 4:5). Speaks for itself..
'Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;" (Rom. 3:24).
"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any MAN SHOULD BOAST." (Eph. 2:8,9).
We can have confidence that we are in the will of God in our determination to stand fast in liberty and allow GOD'S GRACE to do ITS work in OUR lives.
And how do we know that until the day we die, we are still a work in progress, even though we are saved, sealed, and seated spiritually in the heavenlies?
"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ;
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." (Philippians 3:20,21).
As long as we are on this earth, we are not perfect. We don't claim to be perfect. We are saved and awaiting His coming and His changing our vile body unto a glorious body. That is not going to happen by the things we do. It's what HE has done that make it possible.
One more thing, GourmetDan...The bible has something to say about Growing Up..
"But speaking the truth in love, may GROW UP into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:" (Eph. 4:15).
Or you could get really orthodox and limit it to the Catholics. Where might you draw the line?
Or, you might do something novel and draw the line at the scriptures...
The Body of Christ is Spiritual, not physical...Conversion is in the spirit, not the flesh...
There is no physical Body of Christ; no religion that is the Body of Christ...
There are likely Christians in each of the groups you mention...And not everyone who is a member of your physical orthodox (to some) religions are going to heaven...
That's right...We must say YES...And we know you guys believe something extra is essential as well...You guys don't have to say YES to Jesus, but you do have to get WET...
Well her point was that hers was one of those which said you couldn't lose your salvation but which also said "everybody talkin' 'bout heaven ain't goin' there," that you could THINK you were saved and be wrong.
There are some problems with this quote. Firstly, it indicates that God is beholden to one of His creation in that He must grant eternal life to one man if another man requests it. It moves the conferrer of salvation from God to man. God here has no choice.
Secondly, John does not say sinning to or not to the point of impossibility of being granted eternal life. John says that there are sins that cannot be forgiven.
1 John 16: 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.
There are what the Catholic Church teaches are venial sins and those that are mortal sins. The specific sins carry with them specific weights.
On the other hand, the apostle asserts that if a man does sin to such an extent that repentance and forgiveness is impossible, it would be "unto death"`spiritual death, spiritual death in the sense that his condition is irrevocable (cf. Matt 12:31-32).
That is not what he says. He says that there are specific sins which are deadly and those which are not deadly.
It is clear that "brother" in Scripture normally refers to a saved individual, but John's usage of the term implies that in some cases there will be a difference between what is professed and what is actually true.
Correct. There are true believers - those who profess and those who do not. There are also unbelievers - those who profess belief and and those who do not.
Furthermore, experience has vividly illustrated the power of God to regenerate the most reprobate of sinners, and therefore the believer should be careful not to judge the status of another too quickly. Nevertheless, John asserts that the habitual practice of sin does indicate the spiritual state of a man (cf. Gal 5:21). Consequently, while the believer is to pray for this sinning brother until God reveals otherwise, John reminds him that the efficacy of his prayer may not extend to that person and that the believer's confidence should not be diminished thereby.
This passage says nothing of God revealing anything to us about another. On the face of it, it says that God must save those whom I tell Him to save. God, under this interpretation becomes the slave to His creation. Obviously this is a very incorrect interpretation.
This is not an adumbration of the Roman Catholic doctrine regarding mortal sin, for which the consequence is spiritual death (unless it is reversed during this lifetime through confession and penance or after this lifetime while in purgatory through the efforts of relatives still alive).
Correct. The Catholic doctrine is that one must repent of one's sins AFTER one has committed them, as per Scripture. There is not one general repentence and then transport to Party Central after being saved once.
On the contrary, it only maintains that, in keeping with the Johannine theme, persistent sin in the life of anyone who professes to be saved indicates that he is not saved, and that the ultimate end of such is spiritual death.
An indication to us humans is NOT the equivalent of God's Judgement. It does not say this.
Although acts of sin do not cause one to die spiritually
1 John 5: says the opposite. Certain sins can cause irreversible spiritual death.
the habitual practice of sin may lead to an irreversible state, a condition in which forgiveness will be no longer available.
It does not say that. It says that there are certain sins which are deadly and there are certain sins which are not.
The limitation has only to do with the unbeliever, however, for the believer's full forgiveness was procured by the death of Christ at Calvary.
Negative. The price was paid. Now, each person is to be Judged on his own deeds. Nobody gets a free ride. Jesus paid the price for all men and made it possible for them to be saved. Now, each man will be Judged after his own death.
Grow up to be like you??? Shirley you jest...
You mean to tell me/us that you can't find a single verse in the scriptures that show a person is sealed until the day of redemption; that a person can't lose his/her salvation???
"I do not frustrate THE GRACE OF GOD: for if righteousness come BY THE LAW, then Christ is DEAD IN VAIN." (Gal. 2:21).
It appeals mostly to new and immature believers who need someone to tell them what to think and to those who have an interest in occupying that position and 'Lording it over' them, IMO.
There is no physical Body of Christ; no religion that is the Body of Christ...
There are likely Christians in each of the groups you mention...And not everyone who is a member of your physical orthodox (to some) religions are going to heaven...
The problem with a simple statement of: you must believe in order to be saved, is that what does that belief consist of? The whole history of the Church is trying to define what that belief should be.
The Oneness Pentecostals, for instance, believe in only One God and that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one person all combined. Does that remove them from consideration for salvation? If not, then where is the line?
Catholicism attempts to define such things and calls them doctrine. How loose can one be? Can one be Wiccan and be saved? Can one be Jehovah's Witness and be saved? If so, why?
That's right...We must say YES
Then does that make you responsible for your own salvation?
...And we know you guys believe something extra is essential as well
Sure. Saying yes is not enough. It is essential, but not enough. How many who cry Lord, Lord, will not be saved?
You guys don't have to say YES to Jesus, but you do have to get WET
Negative. We must say yes, and we must have some form of baptism. But these by themselves are not enough either. Lord, Lord, doncha know?
I would go even beyond that and simply attribute it to the emotional need for surety. If you walk up to somebody and say: believe in me and you will go to Heaven, and walk up to somebody else and say: believe in me and imitate me and when you go to Heaven, you will be Judged upon that imitation and your eternal Judgement will be based upon that imitation, who might you be convincing more easily?
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