Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
Wow.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
What if the pope and RCC agrees with the alien, That Jesus Christ was one of them.
Bible say "faith without works is dead" James 2:20
James is addressing those who SAY or CLAIM they have FAITH.
Those who have a True Saving Faith (trusting in Christ alone for salvation) and are regenerated WILL PRODUCE works.
Those who SAY THEY HAVE FAITH but have no change in their lives are most likely fooling themselves and others.
Fig trees produce figs not thorns. Thorn bushes don't produce figs to BECOME FIG Trees.
Salvation is an unmerited GIFT given through FAITH that WILL PRODUCE works.
"You shall know them by their fruit"
My impression is that in Catholic thought faith is a grace AND a work. In Protestant thought, however, it is simply a gift, a grace
Is faith a work in your thought?
A lot of things were/are significant about that epic moment at Cana.
MarkB says : “if this passage is to be taken at face value , then Mary goes to Jesus and says: Hey—do something!!!! We’re at this wedding and you’re contributing nothing and they’re outta wine. Get moving. Jesus says No way. I’m not ready yet. Mary says to the staff: get moving......so on the face of it, Jesus disses his mother in public, but when it comes down to crunch time, He does what she asks. Yeah, that’s putting her in her place. And very Jewish, by the way.”
I heard a conference given by the late, great Archbishop Fulton Sheen about this public moment of Jesus the Lord.
First of all, the good and learned Bishop said that the accurate translation of what Jesus said to his mother was “What is to me, is to you”—NOT “what is that to you”. The words “what is to me is to you” hearkens back to the prophecy of Simeon when Joseph and Mary presented Jesus in the temple. That passage also occurs in Luke’s Gospel. Simeon told Mary that a “sword would pierce her heart, that would lay bear the thoughts of many”. It was a prophecy of Mary’s suffering in the hour of her son’s Passion, and that the sword that pierced his heart would reverberate to hers.
Also, every time that Jesus refers to his “hour” He is speaking of his Passion; every time He mentions his Day, it refers to his Resurrection and Coming in Glory.
We read in Luke that Mary, at the Annunciation of Gabriel, was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. That overshadowing surely must have remained with her—even as today we Christians believe with our whole hearts that we are helped and comforted and guided by the Holy Spirit-—and surely the Holy Spirit’s presence in the house of Nazareth was never gone, for the Incarnate Word was there —for 30 years.
Someone had to tell Mary that there was no more wine. We aren’t told who that person was, ,but we can easily believe that Mary was moved by the Holy Spirit to let her Son know. Mary’s response to that prompting led her to inform her Son. She didn’t tell him what to do. She didn’t think He “wasn’t contributing anything”. She didn’t say “get moving”. She simply let Him know that there was no more wine. Period. Then she spoke to the chief steward: “Do whatever He tells you”. This is—and always is—Mary’s only message to us—we who are in the bridal party of the great Wedding Feast of the Lamb.
Those poorest of the poor in that area, witnesses to the opening of the public ministry of the Lord, are our forebears—we who are the poorest of the poor—the anawim of the Lord—yet richly blessed and relieved of our thirst for union with Him. Because He heard his mother’s report of their need He responded to it, just as He knew from all eternity that He was going to do that day.
Mary’s intercession was for those whose need was made known to her and she spoke to her Son on their behalf.
Interesting that Luke’s Gospel closes with Jesus at another meal—one to which he was invited—in which “He was recognized at the breaking of the bread.”
Is faith a work in your thought?
I wouldn't argue with that definition. However, I believe the average Catholic doesn't see "work" in that light.
IMO there is a vast difference in CATHOLIC thought and "Catholic" understanding.
Frankly, I believe the Protestant has the better argument concerning Faith, Grace, and Works.
Oh, if we could only all work with the same dictionary. Sigh!
My thoughts on the wedding in Cana, and this is my speculation by my own admission just in case anyone wants to flip out over it.....
Wedding in those days were family affairs. And as in every wedding, the family throws the party. Now, my suspicion is that it’s a wedding in Jesus’ family and Mary was responsible for provisions or somehow connected with it. Since there was no mention of Joseph in the NT after Jesus childhood and the Jesus in the Temple episode, one could conclude that he had died.
That would leave Jesus as the oldest child. Therefore, when Mary realizes that there’s no wine, she comes to Him with the problem. Or maybe she was just worrying about it out loud to Him.
Anyway, she comes to Him with this problem probably expecting Him to fix it but certainly not knowing HOW He’s going to do that. Regardless, He takes action to rectify the situation and instead of sending out the servants to BUY more wine, He makes it.
I seriously doubt that she knew He was going to provide it miraculously and it passage does not support the idea that Jesus cannot refuse any request of His mother, as I’ve heard Catholics argue.
laid “bear” should have been laid “bare”
I will understand your smiles
Is faith that Jesus is God necessary for salvation in your view?
Is faith that Jesus is God necessary for salvation in your view?
If your works can condemn you, then it is about salvation.
I think that when one considers the great number of NT texts dealing with the importance of works, there is some theological burden to put 'works' in the context of the new life.
Clearly the important thing is what bkaycee says, the works are the fruits of grace, the fruits of the grace which is faith.
Me, myself, personally, I find Ephesians 2:10 useful:
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.TO work (overwork?) this image, associated with walking is progress, so that in some sense we say the walking is the means whereby we progress. So God recreates us and sets us walking (walks in us?) along the Way. The result of walking is progress.
In that highly metaphorical sense we can think of works bringing "rewards". But all depends on our recreation and on God working in us both to will and to do.
IMHO any notion of merit (for us) which is not firmly based on that notion and which is not entertained by someone whose mind is not often directed to that notion will lead to pride, despair, futility and therefore is NOT the Gospel.
IMHO
The question I have is: how are we created IN CHRIST? When does that exactly happen? You can't walk in the good works God prepared beforehand if you're not created IN CHRIST. And if you aren't IN CHRIST, then all the good works in the world aren't going to get you IN CHRIST.
No, you have it backwards: They contradict him (Paul, Scripture) continually...
...and guess who came first...
I doubt she would appreciate you saying she was completely corrupt, wicked, and perverted.
I doubt her Son would appreciate it either.
Thanks for your reply, metmom. And thanks for not catching me up on that bear-bare typo :-)
I understand what you say: “this is my speculation by my own admission”.
It’s true that weddings were “family affairs” in those days. But it helps a lot to be familiar with the wedding customs of that time and culture. In the village setting, the groom would leave his house and pass by all the houses of the village, gathering the wedding party as he went to his final destination, the house of his bride. Everyone was invited. It was a village event. The people joining in the party’s journey from the house of the groom to the house of the bride had to carry their lanterns—or torches. That’s the point of the parable about the bridesmaids and the oil for their lamps.
The Bridegroom Jesus left his Father’s house to come among us. He gathers his followers along his earthly pilgrimage among us—and those of his eternal wedding party are cautioned to keep their lamps filled with oil (oil in Biblical language is also for healing and honor and and blessing)
So actually everyone in the village was included in the party— the measure of their participation was the measure of their joy.
So—I don’t see the wedding feast as something that was a party of Jesus’ family—in fact, I read that passage as Jesus and his mother and the disciples being invited guests.
It won’t come to you as a surprise that I don’t believe that Jesus was the “oldest son”. I believe that He was the only Son. But that’s already been discussed too often on these threads, and I don’t want to start that topic up again.
The Holy Spirit takes care of that, "ordinarily" through water baptism.
I would say that the Holy Ghost often works in us for years before we finally are "subjectively" born again.
Too busy to do more detail.
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