[Mad Dawg]

I don't see any use in discussing the opinions, generally anecdotally gathered, of people who don't study their religion. We can't force catechesis down people's throats.

I think that when one considers the great number of NT texts dealing with the importance of works, there is some theological burden to put 'works' in the context of the new life.

Clearly the important thing is what bkaycee says, the works are the fruits of grace, the fruits of the grace which is faith.

Me, myself, personally, I find Ephesians 2:10 useful:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

TO work (overwork?) this image, associated with walking is progress, so that in some sense we say the walking is the means whereby we progress. So God recreates us and sets us walking (walks in us?) along the Way. The result of walking is progress.

In that highly metaphorical sense we can think of works bringing "rewards". But all depends on our recreation and on God working in us both to will and to do.

IMHO any notion of merit (for us) which is not firmly based on that notion and which is not entertained by someone whose mind is not often directed to that notion will lead to pride, despair, futility and therefore is NOT the Gospel.

IMHO

[smvoice]

I like your giving of Eph. 2:10, Mad Dawg. It is a beautiful verse, which actually says a LOT.

The question I have is: how are we created IN CHRIST? When does that exactly happen? You can't walk in the good works God prepared beforehand if you're not created IN CHRIST. And if you aren't IN CHRIST, then all the good works in the world aren't going to get you IN CHRIST.

[OLD REGGIE]

I don't see any use in discussing the opinions, generally anecdotally gathered, of people who don't study their religion. We can't force catechesis down people's throats.

I think that when one considers the great number of NT texts dealing with the importance of works, there is some theological burden to put 'works' in the context of the new life.

Clearly the important thing is what bkaycee says, the works are the fruits of grace, the fruits of the grace which is faith.

Me, myself, personally, I find Ephesians 2:10 useful:

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

TO work (overwork?) this image, associated with walking is progress, so that in some sense we say the walking is the means whereby we progress. So God recreates us and sets us walking (walks in us?) along the Way. The result of walking is progress.

In that highly metaphorical sense we can think of works bringing "rewards". But all depends on our recreation and on God working in us both to will and to do.

IMHO any notion of merit (for us) which is not firmly based on that notion and which is not entertained by someone whose mind is not often directed to that notion will lead to pride, despair, futility and therefore is NOT the Gospel.

IMHO

Once again, no argument from me. Well said.

OTOH Most "Catholics" and "Protestants" don't have, and can't be expected to have, an understanding at your level.

Your assignment, if you choose to carry it out, is to "splain" it to them in elementary terms. This message will self destruct in 30 seconds.

[Quix]

I find some congruent overlap with your perspective yet again.

. . . though I am convinced that SALVATION is by Faith alone.