Repent!
Posted on 07/18/2010 6:04:05 AM PDT by Titus Quinctius Cincinnatus
THX THX.
I think it’s particularly ironic that I got all of such from the most rabid types of RC’s around. LOL.
MORE THAN PLAUSIBLE.
PRAISE GOD FOR HIS FAITHFULNESS.
THX
AM humbled by your kind words.
NOPE. THAT’S NOT THE TRUTH.
WASN’T THE SEQUENCE.
I’ve gone through at least a couple periods in my life where virtually everything was tossed overboard and God helped build it back afresh—what was worth building back or building anew . . . about a sub-atomic particle at a time.
Only folks who’ve been stripped to the bone marrow through extremely excruciating long dark nights of the soul will understand what I’m saying—or believe it, likely.
And, when I lived next door to the MaryKnoll Sister, I was not bristley about her perspective. We had great fellowship.
Given all that, I took all the RC stuff afresh, too and considered each issue on its own merits.
The Marian stuff is utterly devoid of merit in the least degree, from my observations, research and perspective.
Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isaiah 48:11
For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
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Do you consider yourself to be an authority? Do you believe that the above is a convincing argument?
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There are two basic errors in logic here in the responses to my post.
First, they take the word “service” in a verse of the O.T. and decide that the meaning of the word IN THAT VERSE is the only meaning that it can possibly have in the entire Word of God, or anywhere else for that matter. In other words, the “service” of God, which is another term for “worship”, is the only “service” that is possible. Any other meaning of the word is invalid.
“Service” of Mary (venerating and honoring her) is wrong. Service of the saints (venerating them and asking them to pray for us to God) is wrong,
“service” of fellow Christians is forbidden.
Helping my mother do the dishes or take the trash out is forbidden. Well, the list could go on indefinitely.
This is simply madness! I feel like I've fallen through the Looking Glass here, and I'm speaking with the Mad Hatter or Humpty Dumpty...”when I say a word, it means exactly what I say it means!”
I'm going to rush on down to Joe's service station around the corner and tell him he's blaspheming. How dare he provide service to people! Service is only to be given to God! How dare he!
While I'm on that, I'm going tell that Italian restaurant I like to eat at that their good service is no longer appreciated or wanted. I'm never going there again and participating in their blasphemies! No, Sirree!
The second error they made was not reading the verse in 2 Kings carefully.
The verse merely forbids “service” of false gods in place of the true God. It says nothing about other forms of service to people.
These posters need some basic education in Logic and semantics, among other things.
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ,I put the line breaks and hyphens in to idently the 'articles'.
- at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood,
- truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body;
- of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead,
- and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood;
- like us in all respects, apart from sin;
- as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages,
- but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer (Θεοτοκος);
- one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten,
- recognized in two natures,
- without confusion, without change, without division, without separation;
- the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence,
- not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ;
- even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.
I think those who do not like Theotokos are struggling against the (repeated)"ONE and the SAME."
Also, as is evident, they think (Θεοτοκος) raises Mary too much. I think that what we proclaim is the wonder of the Incarnation -- as truly wonderful.
I'm guessing that with their many dispensations, the dispensationalists may maybe miss the universe shattering and rebuilding of He Kaine Diatheke, the NEW Covenant (or in this context maybe I should say THE New Covenant - not one of many new covenants, because the newness of this one puts the distinctions in Noachian, Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidian in the shade.
The great grace given to the Panagia is not that she is great in herself but that God is so great that his dumbfounding humility is too much for us to bear.
Uh, what was the question?
Oh yeah. So it gets to sounding like there are two problems: the first is not understanding what Motherhood is, either in terms of the biological errors of the old times or in the light of our new understanding. If Mom is diploid blue-eyes, and Baby comes out with brown eyes, that was Daddy. If Mom is diploid human type personnel, and Baby comes out divine, that was daddy.
One mom rejoices because she had the child of a brown-eyed handsome man. The other mom rejoices because she had the Son of God!
The first mom, if she knows her biology, knows she has no brown eyed traits in her. Mary knows she has no GOD traits in her.
And so, the second problem, arising from the reluctance to say Mary is Deipara, ends up requiring some kind of way that Mary could bear, well almost anything but God the Son of God.
We hardly dare rejoice in the wonder of God's humility. They just won't have it.
God bless the Fathers of Chalcedon and the gifts and promise of God and the Spirit.
Ha!...perhaps both aye!
If you have ever asked a friend for prayer, please explain why.
Okay. I was wrong.
I wish you would write a pamphlet or a monograph then explaining your observations, research and perspective.
Boaters say it's "beer-thirty" or agree with Buffett that it's five o'clock somewhere. ;o)
Sorry, Simeon knew Jesus was the Messiah when Mary and Joseph presented Him in the temple.
Just take it in stride Quix.....a little perspective...
” Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words”...Prv.29:9.....They heap abuse on anyone who rebukes them.
“Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool then for him”...Prov.26:12
“He who rebukes a man will in the end gain more favor than he who has a flattering tongue”...Prov.28:23
Good post, thanks.
What I see often is something like “Mary was the mother of the human part of Jesus...”
Which is pretty pure Nestorianism.
Nestorius rejected “Theotokos” as I believe many of our Protestant FRiends do or have problems with. This and the Nestorian Heresy go hand in hand.
The First Council of Ephesus in 431 is also very relevant.
Roh Rho.
Repent!
What a lovely representation of Christ as the heart of Mary. Thanks!
What authority are you claiming for such an outrageous judgment against a fellow FReeper?
I feel a little Sysyphean here, but, well, try this. One of the thoughts I had when I was young (in the context of artificial contraception) was that it would seem from the entire Salvation History it is the quality of Love to overflow. Creating and caring (and saving) are part of what it means to be God. Anyway, overflowing is my point here. Let that be the first pawn in my gambit.
Now my second pawn is this: Just for a minute, stipulate what we say about Mary is true. (Really. How could one toke hurt?) How can we fit this into the overall scheme?
The answer to that is what I have said about Mary being an instance of proleptic eschatology. She has, all her life (we would say) 'enjoyed' some significant fulfillment of what is promised to all the blessed, namely: through and because of intimacy with Jesus, we will all be utterly without sin and we will be, body and soul, kings and queens in heaven.
Third pawn. This is maybe a guy thing. Since my little sister was born, I have always enjoyed kids and, often, preferred their company to that of my peers. That REALLY grew when I was a chaplain in Pediatrics. And it exploded when the 'orrible brat child was born -- just exploded. I love little ones and in a way every little one is mine. I would happily, really, give my life in a gunfight to defend not just MY family, but every family.
Without noticing it, I just gave an example of what I'm trying to say about overflowing. I start loving little ones, and I end up loving their families. I don't love them less, but because I love them, I love their mothers and fathers and sibs.
I've lost track of my gambit. "My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar....."
Oh yeah. It's my love for God, and more fundamentally and importantly, His love for me that leads to my love for Mary and the saints. It's no longer a matter of alienated humans approaching a metaphysically inaccessible God. It's us living in the Christ whose Life and Love lives in us, IS us.
Mary's glory is not separate from but derived from God's glory. Our love of Mary is not separate from our love of God, but is the source of that Love (hint: God Himself) loving in us. The object of that love is what the Love of God has done in Mary.
As far as I'm concerned the theologically tricky part is to preserve the metaphysical distinction between creature and Creator after the Incarnation and Resurrection. I'm confident that there is one and that it's important. We will always be beneficiaries, we will never be sources. All Glory is God's but as optical fibers, lenses, mirrors, prisms, we reflect, refract, turn and, finally return that glory. When you start out with God the Son of God giving up everything to share His life with us, you end up with some pretty amazing promises. It's all about the overflowing.
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