Defending the Holy See [Vatican Lawyer Discusses the Supreme Court’s Decline of Abuse Appeal]

National Catholic Register ^ | 6/29/2010 | JOAN FRAWLEY DESMOND

[Alamo-Girl]

Dr. Eckleburg raised and you expanded on an important point. Namely, that these errant priests stand as evidence that not all persons who call themselves Catholic believe the Church dogma and doctrines.

Or to put it another way, non-Catholics are often accused of having their own private interpretation of Scripture - YOPIOS or something like that.

But in the final analysis, each person - Catholic or not - is an individual not a robot.

We are not made with a cookie cutter. Some understand more. Some believe more. Some understand but rebel. Some love God. Some resent Him. And so on.

Only God knows what is in all our hearts.

The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? – Jer 17:9

And so I would say that no assembly of Christians is a monolith. Tenets may be carved in stone, but members are fallible individuals.

Love God. Believe Him. Trust Him.

[bronx2]

The contest to determine whether one is an employee or independent contractor has been heavily litigated by the IRS. There are the famous 25 factors which indicate if one is either an employee or independent contractor. The court will probably utilize these factors in its determination . It appears that the subject was an independent contractor notwithstanding the arguments that the Vatican creates the dogma which controls his actions. In this situation, arguments for employee status appear to be too tenuous.Similar pleadings established precedence which will control the outcome.

As for the fear of losing the fine art treasures housed in the Vatican , said treasures are owned by the citizens of Italy under the 1929 concordat with the Vatican.

[small voice in the wilderness]

They are now being called "independent contractors".

How's that for the "Bush's Fault" excuse of the Catholic Church? lol!

[Quix]

Well put

AND A VERY APT EXAMPLE, imho.

Thx.

[Quix]

Or to put it another way, non-Catholics are often accused of having their own private interpretation of Scripture - YOPIOS or something like that.

But in the final analysis, each person - Catholic or not - is an individual not a robot.

We are not made with a cookie cutter. Some understand more. Some believe more. Some understand but rebel. Some love God. Some resent Him. And so on.

Only God knows what is in all our hearts.

The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it? – Jer 17:9

And so I would say that no assembly of Christians is a monolith. Tenets may be carved in stone, but members are fallible individuals.
Love God. Believe Him. Trust Him.

---

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.

THX THX.

[RnMomof7]

Excellent post

[Dr. Eckleburg]

They are now being called "independent contractors". How's that for the "Bush's Fault" excuse of the Catholic Church? lol!

LOLOL. The similarities between the papacy and the democrat party just keep piling up.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your encouragements, dear brother and sister in Christ!

[D-fendr]

I’d ask my local priest if his employer was the Holy See, but I don’t want him to think I’m that stupid.

[Alamo-Girl]

LOLOL!

[small voice in the wilderness]

and yet these "independent contractors" have the power, confirmed to them by Rome, to "retain" or "remit" sin? They should be forced to put a disclaimer on their priesthood.

*independent contractor according to the Pope*

[NYer]

Catholic Ping
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[Desdemona]

As for the fear of losing the fine art treasures housed in the Vatican , said treasures are owned by the citizens of Italy under the 1929 concordat with the Vatican.

Hmmm.... Is this everything in the Vatican Museum or are specific items singled out? Where can we read a translation of this agreement?

[livius]

Thank you for the analysis. Even from the point of view of a complete layman, I couldn’t imagine how they were going to establish the Vatican as the employer. Still, stranger things have happened, and I am glad to know that US law wouldn’t favor this.

As for the Vatican art works, thank you again for the information on the concordat.

[SuziQ]

This is a good explanation of the issues in the lawsuit!

[the_conscience]

f one of these contractors has access to my buildings and is not supervised if they commit a crime I won't be prosecuted for it.

This is sometimes referred to as 'vicarious' liability for the acts of your agents, consultants and other contractors. It is your responsibility to make sure the agent you hire conducts business in accordance with the law!

[Forest Keeper]

One of the most important parts of that defense is to help people understand that the Church is not a monolith. It is composed of different entities that operate with relative autonomy and make their own decisions about the hiring and firing of personnel. Thus, just because a priest is a member of a religious order, it does not make him an employee of the Holy See.

I agree that this is baloney. When it comes to dogma and earthly authority, etc. all we hear is the monolithic "always and everywhere believed". But when the lawsuits come then suddenly "always and everywhere believed" is tossed out the window in favor of "different entities that operate with relative autonomy". We've heard the argument a thousand times that only Catholicism is true Christianity BECAUSE of its never-changing monolithic beliefs and central authority. Consequently, they criticize Protestantism BECAUSE of its actual relative autonomy. Regardless of their success or failure on this legal matter, the hypocrisy is staggering.

It was interesting to note that the lawyer in the article appeared very confident in his position and treated the case as a mere nuisance suit. It appears that he is resting his laurels on the legal status of the Holy See as a sovereign governmental entity. Indeed, according to the U.S. State Department:

"The Holy See is the universal government of the Catholic Church and operates from the Vatican City State, a sovereign, independent territory of 0.44 square kilometers (0.17 square miles). The Pope is the ruler of both the Vatican City State and the Holy See. The Holy See, as the supreme body of government of the Catholic Church, is a sovereign juridical entity under international law."

It appears their position is that the only employees (or almost only) of the Holy See work in Vatican City, and that all others are the equivalent of independent contractors. Morally of course this position is completely disingenuous because their claims of superiority stem in part from their rejection of local independence.

Legally, though, their technical argument may carry the day. I would not be so confident as their attorney, however, since the governmental status of the Holy See is so unique. For example, their revenue sources, sales and voluntary contributions, are unlike those of any other government in the world. So with their technical status notwithstanding, they sure function and act much more like corporation than a government, especially with regard to their exercise of authority. These are uncharted waters and given the right circumstances anything could happen.

The SCOTUS has given some guidance on the employee-IC distinction. In United States v. Silk, 331 U.S. 704 (1947), these (relevant here) factors were mentioned as important: (1) the degree of control exercised by the supposed employer; (2) the degree to which the supposed employee's opportunity for profit and loss is determined by the supposed employer; (3) the skill and initiative required in performing the job; and (4)the permanency of the relationship. ----- The Court noted that its list was not exhaustive or conclusive, however, by these factors there certainly appears to be a legitimate case for establishing an employee relationship.

Be that as it may, if nothing else this case further exposes the outrageous and hypocritical moral claims of superiority by the Catholic Church. From CCC 2032:

The Church, the "pillar and bulwark of the truth," "has received this solemn command of Christ from the apostles to announce the saving truth." "To the Church belongs the right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, including those pertaining to the social order, and to make judgments on any human affairs to the extent that they are required by the fundamental rights of the human person or the salvation of souls." (emphasis added)

Think about the legal tactics and loopholes being used by Vatican lawyers in this and other cases and then think about the Catholic Church's "right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, ... and to make judgments on any human affairs". Then try to eat something. :)

[wmfights]

It is your responsibility to make sure the agent you hire conducts business in accordance with the law!

I don't know of any reason that wouldn't apply to a church.

[wmfights]

Thanks for the detail in your post. I can't help but notice how quiet this thread is now that it's just about the facts of the case.

[Alamo-Girl]

Think about the legal tactics and loopholes being used by Vatican lawyers in this and other cases and then think about the Catholic Church's "right always and everywhere to announce moral principles, ... and to make judgments on any human affairs". Then try to eat something. :)

Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!