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Finders Keepers? - The Evangelical notion that Christians can't lose their salvation is unbiblical.
Envoy ^ | Jan/Feb 1997 | TIM STAPLES

Posted on 06/27/2010 3:10:25 AM PDT by GonzoII

Scenario:

You're discussing religion with an Evangelical friend. For 20 minutes you've responded as best you can to her pointed arguments against Catholic doctrines like Mary's perpetual virginity, praying to saints, venerating statues, and purgatory. She's unconvinced. You're frustrated. It doesn't look like there's much of a chance you'll agree on anything.

Then comes the jackpot question. "Look," she says earnestly, "we can disagree about many things, but what's most important is that we know we can be saved by Jesus Christ. Tell me, if you were to die tonight, do you know for sure if you'd go to heaven?"

This is the "all-important" question for Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants. Although your friend is completely sincere in asking this question (as she's been coached to do by her pastor and the anti-Catholic radio preacher she listens to in the afternoon), you realize that if you don't answer correctly, you'll walk into a sort of theological ambush.

If you respond that Christians can't, apart from a special revelation from God, have metaphysical or absolute certainty concerning their salvation, a completely biblical and theologically precise answer, your Evangelical friend will gleefully spring a "trap" on you, based on 1 John 5:13: "These things I write to you, that you may know you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God."

"See?" she smiles confidently. "The Bible disagrees with you!" She then proceeds to inform you that if you "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation" (Rom. 10:9-10).

(Excerpt) Read more at envoymagazine.com ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; freformed; salvation; scripture
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To: daniel1212

Correction on above: Gal. 5:1-4, not 14.


41 posted on 06/27/2010 6:28:55 AM PDT by daniel1212 ("Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out " (Acts 3:19))
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To: conservativegramma

That is just really awesome and makes my day!

I’ve been doing some google searches the last few days, looking for a group or forum of people who love to read their bible, especially those who have done so numerous times. Not too many people read theirs, and some say they wouldn’t bother even if they had all the time in the world. I just don’t understand that way of thinking. I love my bible and I enjoy reading it. It’s my most precious possession.

It’s just nice to know that others read their bible too. It makes me feel less alone, if you know what I mean. I’ve never met anyone in real life who has actually read all of it, let alone numerous times, so my heart is singing a bit this morning. :)


42 posted on 06/27/2010 6:29:48 AM PDT by Miztiki
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To: daisy mae for the usa

4 people now! LOL! It’s like a dying breed almost, you know? Like Americans who have never read the Constitution. It’s just so nice to see your reply. Thanks!


43 posted on 06/27/2010 6:37:18 AM PDT by Miztiki
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To: daisy mae for the usa
why are you not only focused on scripture now?

The Bible tells me that the church - (not the Bible) is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

This discussion is ongoing all over the religion board. And I always fail to get a cogent response to one question I have.

To wit: Why do "Bible only" Christians come away from the same authority with disagreement? If the Bible is supposed to be a rule book, why no consensus on what it demands?

44 posted on 06/27/2010 6:58:29 AM PDT by don-o (My son, Ben - Marine Lance Corporal texted me at 0330 on 2/3/10: AMERICA!)
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To: Miztiki

Count me as #4 then, I am still fascinated by the trivial details. and plan on another read of every single little word again. I learn more each time I read it.


45 posted on 06/27/2010 7:00:37 AM PDT by rightly_dividing
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To: GonzoII

“If you don’t keep the Commandments, Bud,” you never converted in the first place. If you have been born again - made a new creation by the power of God - do you think you can uncreate yourself?

A changed life is the result of salvation, not the procedure by which we earn it.


46 posted on 06/27/2010 7:01:40 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (When the ass brays, don't reply...)
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To: don-o; daisy mae for the usa
Why do "Bible only" Christians come away from the same authority with disagreement? If the Bible is supposed to be a rule book, why no consensus on what it demands?

Because we are fallible humans. If we were perfect, with perfect understanding, we wouldn't be here.

47 posted on 06/27/2010 7:03:18 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: Miztiki

I have also read every word of our Constitution. Seems that people state it says this or that, so I decided to read every word of it.


48 posted on 06/27/2010 7:07:35 AM PDT by rightly_dividing
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To: GonzoII
If you don't keep the Commandments, Bud, you can't make it to Heaven, the Bible is clear on that.

Then why did we need a new religion two thousand years ago when G-d had already provided one?

49 posted on 06/27/2010 7:08:05 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Lakhen 'emor, hinni noten lo 'et-beriti shalom.)
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To: Ann Archy
Maccabbees also???? :)

Wisdom (beautiful book), Ecclesiasticus (or Sirach, one of my favorites), Tobias (Tobit, journey along to a great marriage), Judith, and Baruch, too.

50 posted on 06/27/2010 7:16:32 AM PDT by Desdemona (One Havanese is never enough.)
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To: GonzoII
"we can't keep the law."

Then you make Christ sound silly for commanding us to to keep it. And I'm talking about the Ten Commandments not the old Jewish precepts aside from the Decalogue.

The "Ten Commandments" are "old Jewish precepts." They never applied to non-Jews, and do not today.

Your words are a perfect illustration of a most ironic situation I have noticed over the years. The more "antinomian," "faith only" a chr*stian is, the greater his sentimental attachment to the "superseded" (G-d forbid!) Jewish laws and rituals, because he finds them in the Bible. The less antinomian and more "action" oriented a chr*stian is (and the more he defends "law" in the abstract), the more hostile he is to the "superseded" Jewish law.

Liturgical chr*stians are trying to have it both ways. If you need a savior, then get a savior and dispense with law altogether. If you believe you have the responsibility to keep "the law," then you don't need a savior (in the traditional chr*stian sense) at all.

Ultimately, as I've remarked several times, all Catholic/Orthodox arguments against Protestantism are Jewish arguments against chr*stianity.

51 posted on 06/27/2010 7:17:02 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Lakhen 'emor, hinni noten lo 'et-beriti shalom.)
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To: Miztiki

Me...


52 posted on 06/27/2010 7:20:21 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: rightly_dividing

The bible AND the constitution? I’d shake your hand if I could reach through the computer. :)

I learn something new each time too. I could live to be 100 years old and read my bible 100 times and still have a ton to learn. The bible is so rich.

What amuses me is that, after the first few times through, I thought I knew just about everything. I was “enlightened”!

Now I know better. I’m like Job when God speaks to him. (I literally tremble when I get to that part.) Job had nothing to say when God spoke, and I have nothing to say either except that there is only one God, and he is worthy of our love and obedience and worship. And that I love him. That’s all I know.

Gosh, you wouldn’t happen to know Hebrew too, would ya? That would be the trifecta!


53 posted on 06/27/2010 7:22:30 AM PDT by Miztiki
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To: VRWCTexan; Religion Moderator

This is posted in religion. Why are you seeing it if you are browsing in news?


54 posted on 06/27/2010 7:33:39 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: GonzoII

Once saved — always saved has never made biblical sense either.

Man has a free will and can turn on God at any time.


55 posted on 06/27/2010 7:34:41 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: GonzoII

enter the Table of Contents of the Catechism of the Catholic Church here

 

What the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on "Once Saved, Always Saved:"

161. "Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. [Cf. Mk 16:16 ; Jn 3:36 ; Jn 6:40 ; et al.] 'Since 'without faith it is impossible to please (God)' and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'']"

162. "Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: 'Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.' [1 Tim 1:18-19 .] To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; [Cf. Mk 9:24 ; Lk 17:5 ; Lk 22:32.] it must be 'working through charity,' abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church. [Gal 5:6 ; Rom 15:13 ; cf. Jam 2:14-26.]"


56 posted on 06/27/2010 7:37:46 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation; VRWCTexan

I have my articles set to “All”. The Religion Forum shows on that setting. He may have it set that way too.


57 posted on 06/27/2010 7:38:55 AM PDT by DJ MacWoW (If Bam is the answer, the question was stupid.)
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To: Miztiki
Sad to say, no Hebrew, nor Greek either. :(

Incidentally, I purchased a Bible on MP3 by Alexander Scourby that is great. Listening to the Bible is a great plus, also, because Mr. Scourby pronounces all the tough names for me, and I can carry it and listen while I drive!

58 posted on 06/27/2010 7:39:43 AM PDT by rightly_dividing
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To: GonzoII

We are declared (past tense) righteous, and we now (present tense) have perfect righteousness before God, not personally, but legally


59 posted on 06/27/2010 7:42:18 AM PDT by wolfman
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To: wolfman
"Who is he that condemneth: it is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again,who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh interession for us.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress,or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

As it is written,For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor power, nor things present, nor things to come,

Nor height,nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord". (Romans 8:34-39).

60 posted on 06/27/2010 7:55:21 AM PDT by small voice in the wilderness ( DEFENDING the INDEFENSIBLE: The PRIDE of a PAWN.)
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