Posted on 05/31/2010 6:33:12 AM PDT by Cronos
Corrected link.
I agree that nuances may differ; in fact, I started in on this subtopic with you with just such an admission about language-translation.
But we still have two cases of death-penalty infractions (the furnace and the lion’s den) wherein the jews thought it sufficiently important NOT to comply with the law.
The bowing down to the king’s image is undeniably worship.
The praying of Daniel, however, is debatable [as we are now doing]. I submit to you that if praying to angels were acceptable then Daniel would have been able to “weasel out” on the technicality.
Also, keep in mind, praying to angels and angels as a medium of transport of prayers are two distinct things. One could be likened to yelling at your computer, the other like using your computer to e-mail your dad.
I know the whole story; it doesn't say what you infer.
Then what of your Fisher King?
Does your grouping believe in everything in the Nicene Creed (ok, ok, I know you don't agree to the One Holy and Catholic Church, but let's put that aside and use the term "catholic" with a small "c"). Does it?
Offcourse, I believe most believing protestants would also agree. It is certainly a summation of scriptural doctrine.
You've placed your soul for all of eternity in the hands of a manmade institution with manmade doctrines and manmade traditions with a history of errors and bloodshed. Pray to God to lift the binders off your eyes and quit depending on your church and depend on God totally.
The Catholic Church has been there since the Apostles. Otherwise tell me how come the Syro-Malabars, the Assyrians etc. retained the same beliefs and structures despite being broken away in the 2nd century or earlier?
Name ONE way in which The Church has become pagan and I’ll ask you why the Ethiopians, the Assyrians etc. retain the same beliefs. These are the beliefs of the Apostles as handed down for 2000 years.
Phil 2:5-7 (NIV)
Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
We have it written that the Son is of the same nature as God; what indicates that the Holy Spirit of not of this nature as well?
As for if the trinity is three aspects/facets of one 'person' or three separate 'persons' I honestly don't know. Maybe the truth/actuality is as strange as the nature of Christ: being both man and God. (Like light being BOTH a wave and a particle in Physics.) ...perhaps both are true.
Perhaps it's better that we, as finite people, cannot truly wrap our minds around an infinite God.
Then you have absolutely NO business debating ANYONE on Christian orthodoxy! God in three persons: Blessed Trinity.
I'm just getting started but I'll stick the one biggie.
....why the Ethiopians, the Assyrians etc. retain the same beliefs....
Outside of the RCC - They don't.
These are the beliefs of the Apostles as handed down for 2000 years.
They would be appalled at the RCC. Using the New Testament as a proof text I'd have no difficulty proclaiming that were even one of the Apostles to humanly return to earth he would be more at home in a Protestant church and would no doubt be an avid anti proclaiming the heresy of the RCC.
what indicates that the Holy Spirit of not of this nature as well? —> what indicates in scripture that The Holy SPirit IS? You’ve put it correctly where you say that we as finite people, cannot truly wrap our minds around an infinite God.
I told you I *don’t* understand the concept; not really.
I’m a programmer and to put it into object-oriented programming terms:
is the reality something like:
type
Father = interface; ...
Son = interface; ...
Spirit = interface; ...
God = object(Father, Son, spirit) ...;
{This is the 1 God approach; “Hear oh Israel, the lord your God is *one* God”}
OR
type
God = {abstract} Object {the nature of God} ;
Father = Object(God) ... ;
Son = Object(God) ... ;
Spirit = Object(God) ... ;
{This is the three-gods approach; “Hear oh Israel, the lord your *God(Elohim)* is one God”; ‘m’ is the pluralizer in Hebrew and it is said that it is on the term for ‘God’ to show respect/importance... it also underscores that the Father is not the Son and neither is the Spirit.}
But these models are human constructs trying to explain something that I *don’t* understand: the Trinity. (Which is not to say that I don’t accept it.)
How would you explain the trinity?
Leoni said:
“I didn’t say that praying to God is talking to yourself. I said “Confessing your sins direct to God is no different than confessing to yourself”. Two totally different doctrines.”
The problem lies in the rigid construct through which you view the Scriptures. What our Lord taught us to pray in the 5th petition of the Our Father is indeed a confession of sin. If not, you tell us all, what is it? Now, to admit this is not to deny that there are other and commended ways to confess one’s sins and receive forgiveness (absolution) through the means of another called by God to grant such. (I am purposely speaking imprecisely here so as not to lead the discussion into another area before this is dealt with.)
That is the bottom line. Jesus taught us to ask directly of the Father that He forgive us our sins. Only one who believes in Jesus, that He is the appointed Messiah, the Savior of the world, the Son of God from eternity and yet also true man conceived and born in time to Mary, can so pray. To say any less is to deny the efficacy and manifest purpose of all other of the Prayer’s petitions. In other words, it is to tell Jesus that He mistaught us. I am not going to go there. Nor will I let others go there without pointing out their error.
This is a straw man only in your own wrongly ordered thinking.
Oh and of course, the heresy is the break-away from conservative scripture and holy tradition. And those groupings that started to break away 1500+ years AFTER Christ are the heresies, yes...
Most likely they’d be appalled by you trying to use a book they’d never heard of to contradict the Church....
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