Posted on 05/25/2010 10:14:07 PM PDT by restornu
From the author of Yecheadquarters Creation
Osas, My story so far....
If you ever wondered what doctrine is right between osas and no-osas, then you have come to the right place. Don't think that because I will be supporting no-osas, that I will have a bias opinion. For I have been on both sides. I was born and raised a baptist. Grew up being taught osas. I never felt bad about it until one day my preacher preached on this subject, and what he said made me realize that this cannot be right. His sermon was based on never losing salvation. But he took it to an area of sin I knew was wrong. He made salvation sound like a ticket to sin.
Now this in itself did not convince me it was wrong. But it planted a seed for me to research it, and I have. A lot of my research involved debating this issue on forums with both osas and no-osas believers. At one point, which was the most confusing point of my life, I was about 50/50 on what to believe. After being frustrated for a while, I decided to go to the source and quit relying so much on doctrine, and what people are saying. Why? Man can take you only so far as truth is concerned. Only God can lead you the rest of the way to find absolute truth.
So I prayed and asked for wisdom about this. My journey was long with many events that were placed there to teach me how and why everything worked out the way that it did. For I can only pray and hope that what I have learned, I will be able to convey to an understanding of most who read this. Why is this so important to me? Because in my journey to learn the wisdom about this, I have also learned that this doctrine alone is destroying the faith of every Christian in such a slow death, most can't even detect it. You might be shocked to read that, because you may be one who believes this doctrine. But don't turn away just yet. For if I cannot convince you to read the rest of this section after reading the first page, then I have failed. So just bare with me while I try and make a point on why I believe this is destroying the Christian faith.
Losing the fear of God.....
I have found that the main thing that keeps me in-line is the fear of God. It keeps what I say and do in check. Problem is, what fear can you have when you cannot lose the ultimate goal as to why anyone would become a Christian?
If I cannot lose salvation:
1) Why should I ask forgiveness? 2) Why should I repent? 3) Why should I do any works for the kingdom of God?
For if you cannot lose salvation, then none of the above even applies. Why would God tell us to do something but then turn around and make it sound like none of it has to be done? It's like saying: You can drive the car all you want, but never put gas in it. Why? Because it's not needed. So why fear God enough to do what He has told us if we are not even going to be judged, or punished for not doing it. Does God speak worthless words? Is God's book a worthless book? If osas is believed, then 90% of God's word would have to be omitted to make it work. Because all punishment for sin has to be omitted.
Why obey the commandments?
In the osas belief, I have debated many. I have found that the ones who take it seriously also will tell you that the ten commandments no longer apply. Why? One verse says that we are no longer saved by the law, which is correct. But being saved by the law, and having to obey the law, are two separate subjects. So does the word of God actually make a mention that the ten commandments are no longer in affect as to following them?
jn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my Commandments. (Jesus speaking)
The love doctrines....
There are many doctrines that teach the love of Christ only. Such as some that teach there is no hell. Could osas be a modified version of one of these doctrines? Think about it for a second. Step back from what you believe and just look at the facts....
Osas claims:
Osas says you cannot lose salvation. Salvation with no conditions. The love doctrines claim there is no hell. Salvation with no conditions. So both determine no hell.
So what makes these two different but yet the same? The love doctrine applies to all. Saved or unsaved. It asks the question: Why would a loving God send His children to hell, or the lake of fire? Sounds like a tempting doctrine to look into don't it? But that's how the Devil hooks you and reels you in. Temptation. How? If you could live the life you want, and still end up in heaven. Which life would you prefer? The life that says we have to obey all these laws about sin, or the one where you can do anything? The anything life always appeals to the flesh, and we are flesh...... So for me to even say that I would not want this would be a lie.
The osas doctrine does the same thing. But it only applies to one group. Get saved and be secure. Never lose salvation. Do you see how the temptation is there? Sin all you want, your secure, you can never fall out of His hands etc....
Exalting the flesh over the spirit.
A doctrine that makes something more appealing to the flesh is what? A temptation.
Does The word of God appeal to the flesh, or the spirit? The spirit. Because heaven is the goal of every person that accepts Christ.
The Osas doctrine makes salvation more appealing to the flesh. How? If there is no punishment for sin, then what wins in the end? Is it the temptation to sin, or feeling you need to repent of the sin? Christ did not die on the cross for a covenant that is more appealing to our fleshly temptation, then our Godly need to abstain, and repent of them.
The God complex...
But, osas also has it's own judgement rules. If someone in their group should actually deny Christ, and decide to live a sinners life. How do they answer this? Well, he or she was never truly saved if they did this.... Really? At what point do we gain enough wisdom to make the same judgements as God? To be able to say, with authority, that this person was not truly saved, is to have a God complex. There is only one being able to determine this, and it is not us.
So what does that statement, so often used by osas, reveal? That it is by man's own choice to not lose salvation that we become secure in it. And because we think and believe this, what we believe makes us judge others as if we were God ourselves. Because security of salvation is our choice, so the judgement of that security in others becomes our choice as well. Osas is setting the rules for salvation for themselves, so why not set it for others as well.
You were not truly saved because you strayed, rejected and denied Christ? If we were not able to sin upon being saved, then this would be true. But I see it no where written in God's word where it says that we can never reject Christ. Sounds like a God complex to me. Because if you can make that type of judgement on earth, then who will be on the throne when we get to heaven? This type of judgement of another brings God down to the level of man. And therefore God would not be worthy to set upon the throne if man has the same ability to judge as He does. To be able to judge another as if we were Gods, also brings pride. And where pride is, becoming humble is much harder to do.
the children of the Lord have ears to hear and eyes to see to know the things of the Lord and to grasp the Parables of the Lord.
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THen why dont they do just that ???
Why are they reading garbage like the book of mormon ???
what is an a nit LDS? :-)
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How big are you Resty ???
Stand up...
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
100 pounds wet...
Yeah youre a nit LSD...
err LDS
You wave that 'self taught' banner around alot. Could it be you are using it as an excuse to not have come up with an actual reply?
Every “religion” repeats the same basic line, “do this and you will be ok.” Mormonism is just the same as every other religion except for biblical Christianity. ONLY the Gospel comes slamming into our religious pretentiousness and says “you can do NOTHING. You are ruined. You are eaten up with sin, pride arrogance and rebellion against God. You have never had a righteous thought since the day you were born, and you only dig a deeper hole for yourself every day.” Anyone who claims the motivation to obey comes from the fear of punishment just shows they have “fallen from grace” in the sense that they don’t understand the gospel in the first place. The reason is that they don’t understand the righteousness standard of God in the first place. They want to scale it down, emasculate it, strip it down to some silly surface moralism confined to basic honesty in transactions, not swearing, keeping your pants up, no drunkenness, etc etc., maybe add some religious activities. This appeals to lost men in the only way they knows how to approach God. It is uncertainty and doubt and self effort, with an eye to the approving eye of men.
The problem is that this is a FLAT DENIAL of the whole sermon on the mount, Jesus deliberately and systematically destroys our “righteousness” beginning in the first beatitude. He says “blessed are the POOR IN SPIRIT.” The beginning of understanding the gospel is knowing you LACK. As long as one imagines they have something to bring to the table, they are not POOR. Again, one who claims they bring ANYTHING to the table (including your own obedience) argues with Jesus. He is the one who stated that you MUST be “perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” Not relatively good, not mostly obedient, not submissive, PERFECT.
Again, the ONLY way a man can claim to have lived in a way so as not to sin his way out of relationship with God is to RE-DEFINE sin to some pathetic set of external commands.
The problem with that view is that such a person DOES NOT see himself or herself as ruined, helpless, and utterly without hope without an alien righteousness given them. Instead they will settle for a slopover of moralistic religiosity and will actively resist the idea of a total cleansing from the inside out. It is much more comfortable to claim that Jesus dusts us off and rearranges a few of the more lurid details of our lives. We call that kind of person a PHARISEE in first century Palestine. We call them churchgoers, and certainly Mormons, nowadays. This whole sorry mess requires a man-centered view of sin, and thus a man-centered view of God.
Again, when Jesus came, he declared himself at war FIRST OF ALL with the religious community and told the religious moralists that they were equally if not more damned than the irreligious for precisely this reason. They proved him right by joining with the irreligious to murder him. This is always the response of the moralist in the end. They hate the true God, though they will speak warmly of a “God” they have invented, who looks benevolently on their good works.
Self-righteousness may even use the word “grace” and then redefine it to mean something other than a completely free and undeserved gift to people who cannot either deserve nor keep it on their own. When they come face to face with the relentless nature of the claims of grace as it is in the bible, though they hated it. Always have, always will.
Phil 2
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. ( of Jesus Christ)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
16 Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.
Yes. My bible also has a chapter 3 of Philippians, as well as a second chapter. Do you recall how Paul talks about all his righteousness? He uses a peculiar word for it.
My view of the bible is that you reconcile these passages rather than pick one and assume that it “refutes” the others.
My view of the bible is that you reconcile these passages rather than pick one and assume that it “refutes” the others.
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It is not that some of these passages contradicts another it depends on situation how it is being applied and yet at the same time may seem inconsistant for me when that happens is the moment to pray over it for clarification the Holy Ghost has always enlighten my mind for a clearer understanding.
That is a new one Pan_Yan,
...but what did I expect being between rocks and hard places that all of you love to forge and are so quick to damn if I do, and damn if I don’t!
Odd how you resort to ‘making it personal’ when backed into a doctrinal corner, but never hesitate to make your insults personal and the Mod just lets you slide.
If you read carefully I used you as in plural!
all of you!
If you see a post which you believe is making it personal, ping me or send me a Freepmail.
BTW even though Pan_Yam wife gives me a hard time I really like her!
Sorry confused Pan_Yam wife with Pan_Yam.
Thanks but no thanks.
The Catholic Church doesn’t consider mormonism to be a Christian religion. They will, however take your money and do good things with it.
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and feed and clothe people ...
unlike the mormons who use the money to build monumentsa to themselves...
If it were between Christians, fine. But having BEEN LDS, I know how they operate. They use minor points of doctrine as proof of the ‘apostasy’. That was the point of this thread.
Been there, done that, God freed me. But I do remember how they operate.
Amen. Unfortuantely, the LDS teach that we have to ‘pay Jesus back’ for His sacrifice by OUR works.
>>> They use minor points of doctrine as proof of the ‘apostasy’. That was the point of this thread.
Well, the point is well made.
However, if they are attempting to point out such a large rift using this issue, they fail to recognize that osas is a very small minority among all of the main line traditional Christian denominations. Even the Pentecostal denominations adhere to the non-osas doctrin. I am not aware of any main stream denomination besides Baptists who teach osas.
Most Christians on both sides of the fence unfortunately DO seem to treat this issue as a minor point. I do not... and that was my point.
What separates us from them though, is that we are not afraid of sharpening a little iron over this... and what they intend to use for weakening us actually strengthens us.
“Unfortuantely, the LDS teach that we have to ‘pay Jesus back’ for His sacrifice by OUR works.”
As if we could EVER be that good.
They think they can.
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