Posted on 05/14/2010 11:03:45 AM PDT by NYer
Holy Scripture, despite all appearances, will not always be easy to interpret. We can be lulled into thinking our common sense and by the letter interpretation of a text is what God intends us to get out of it. However, if this is the case, there would be little to no debates about its meaning; there would be little confusion as to its purpose and how it applies to us today. St. Peter would not have needed to tell us that no prophecy of Scripture is to be interpreted privately, because all interpretations of Scripture would end up the same. We need to understand and heed the warning of St. Mark the Ascetic: Do not let your heart become conceited about your interpretations of Scripture, lest your intellect fall afoul for the spirit of blasphemy. [1] Why would he be warning us of this? Because Scripture, in its most external, simplistic level, could easily lead people to a perverted understanding of God and the Christian faith.
For an interpretation of Scripture to be acceptable (which does not mean it is necessarily correct), it must at least conform to the basic dogmatic teachings of the Church. If God is love, this must be manifest from ones understanding of Scripture. If ones interpretation of a text would lead to God doing or commanding something which runs against the law of love, the law by which God himself acts, then one has indeed committed blasphemy. If one really believes God commands some intrinsic evil, such as genocide, one has abandoned the God who is love, and has at least committed unintentional blasphemy by something evil about him. One cannot get out of this by saying, whatever God wills, is now good, or that the very nature of right and wrong has changed through time, because both would contradict not only the fundamental character of love, but also the fact God has provided us a positive means by which we can understand something of him via analogy; we know what love is, we know what the good is, and therefore we know something about God when we see he is love or that he is good. While we must understand our concepts are limited in relation to God, it is not because God is less than our concepts, but more and their foundation. Thus, Pope Benedict wisely says:
In contrast with the so-called intellectualism of Augustine and Thomas, there arose with Duns Scotus a voluntarism which, in its later developments, led to the claim that we can only know God’s voluntas ordinata. Beyond this is the realm of God’s freedom, in virtue of which he could have done the opposite of everything he has actually done. This gives rise to positions which clearly approach those of Ibn Hazm and might even lead to the image of a capricious God, who is not even bound to truth and goodness. God’s transcendence and otherness are so exalted that our reason, our sense of the true and good, are no longer an authentic mirror of God, whose deepest possibilities remain eternally unattainable and hidden behind his actual decisions. As opposed to this, the faith of the Church has always insisted that between God and us, between his eternal Creator Spirit and our created reason there exists a real analogy, in which – as the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 stated – unlikeness remains infinitely greater than likeness, yet not to the point of abolishing analogy and its language. God does not become more divine when we push him away from us in a sheer, impenetrable voluntarism; rather, the truly divine God is the God who has revealed himself as logos and, as logos, has acted and continues to act lovingly on our behalf. Certainly, love, as Saint Paul says, “transcends” knowledge and is thereby capable of perceiving more than thought alone (cf. Eph 3:19); nonetheless it continues to be love of the God who is Logos. Consequently, Christian worship is, again to quote Paul – “λογικη λατρεία”, worship in harmony with the eternal Word and with our reason (cf. Rom 12:1).[2]
Christianity affirms both the transcendence and immanence of God. The second allows us to say something positive and true about God, while the first reminds us that positive assertions are limited, that they are at best analogous pointers to something beyond the statements themselves. Our teachings truly say something about God. They must be used as the guideline by which we read Scripture. Moreover, as the Church makes abundantly clear, Scripture is itself an ecclesial document, to be interpreted in and by the Church. It must be interpreted in such a way that dogmatic teachings about God (such as his unchanging goodness) are in accord with our understanding of Scriptural text. If reason suggests a disconnect between an interpretation and dogma, we must follow dogma and dismiss the interpretation. Richard Gaillardetz explains this well:
The apostolic witness would be preserved both in the canonical Scriptures and in the ongoing paradosis or handing on of the apostolic faith in the Christian community. The unity of Scripture and tradition is grounded then in the one word whose presence in human history comes to its unsurpassable actualization in Jesus Christ. Scripture and tradition must be viewed as interrelated witnesses to that word. Furthermore, neither Scripture nor tradition can be separated from the Church. The unity of Scripture, tradition and the living communion of the Church itself is fundamental.[3]
Revelation, therefore, is centered upon Jesus Christ and through Christ, the whole of the Holy Trinity:
The principal purpose to which the plan of the old covenant was directed was to prepare for the coming of Christ, the redeemer of all and of the messianic kingdom, to announce this coming by prophecy (see Luke 24:44; John 5:39; 1 Peter 1:10), and to indicate its meaning through various types (see 1 Cor. 10:12). Now the books of the Old Testament, in accordance with the state of mankind before the time of salvation established by Christ, reveal to all men the knowledge of God and of man and the ways in which God, just and merciful, deals with men. These books, though they also contain some things which are incomplete and temporary, nevertheless show us true divine pedagogy.[4]
If the vision of God that one gets out of Scripture is not one which reveals his justice and mercy, the reader of the text has missed something about the text itself. Perhaps the mistake lies in their interpretive scheme, where they assume the text follows the contours of modern historical writings. This is not the case; indeed Christians since the beginning of Church history have understood a very different scheme for the Biblical text: one which presents a kind of history but uses that history to present a deeper, more fundamental understanding of the world. Texts which are seen as impossible, if interpreted as history, nonetheless must be accepted, not because they are historical, but because they reveal something theological. St. Neilos the Ascetic, for example, takes 2 Samuel 4:5-8[5] as being historically absurd. This, he thinks, should be obvious. But if this is the case, does it make the text meaningless? By no means:
It is clear that this story in Scripture should not be taken literally. For how could a king have a woman as door-keeper, when he ought properly to be guarded by a troop of soldiers, and to have round him a large body of attendants? Or how could he be so poor as to use her to winnow the wheat? But improbable details are often included in a story because of the deeper truths they signify. Thus the intellect in each of us resides within like a king, while the reason acts as door-keeper of the senses. When the reason occupies itself with bodily things and to winnow wheat is something bodily he enemy without difficulty slips past unnoticed and slays the intellect.[6]
This scheme was in accord with what Origen taught. Indeed, he believed that the writers were inspired to put in statements which were absurd so as to remind us not to take the text so simply, but to look for the deeper, spiritual nourishment we can get from them, even for those texts which also have a real historical basis:
But since, if the usefulness of the legislation, and the sequence and beauty of the history, were universally evident of itself, we should not believe that any other thing could be understood in the Scriptures save what was obvious, the word of God has arranged that certain stumbling-blocks, as it were, and offenses, and impossibilities, should be introduced into the midst of the law and the history, in order that we may not, through being drawn away in all directions by the merely attractive nature of the language, either altogether fall away from the (true) doctrines, as learning nothing worthy of God, or, by not departing from the letter, come to the knowledge of nothing more divine. And this also we must know, that the principal aim being to announce the spiritual connection in those things that are done, and that ought to be done, where the Word found that things done according to the history could be adapted to these mystical senses, He made use of them, concealing from the multitude the deeper meaning; but where, in the narrative of the development of super-sensual things, there did not follow the performance of those certain events, which was already indicated by the mystical meaning, the Scripture interwove in the history (the account of) some event that did not take place, sometimes what could not have happened; sometimes what could, but did not. And sometimes a few words are interpolated which are not true in their literal acceptation, and sometimes a larger number.[7]
Scripture, of course, was written by various people. While they were inspired by God to write what they wrote, and God inspired the Church to collect the texts it did, in the form it did, we must also understand that the people behind the texts are not mere puppets being forced by God to write as they did. Thus, when patristic authors, or the Church, asserts God as the author of the text, we must not take this as fundamentalists do, but rather recognize that God works with authors based upon their ability and through their cooperation with his intended purposes: The fathers look upon the Bible above all as the Book of God, the single work of a single author. This does not mean, however, that they reduce the human authors to nothing more than passive instruments; they are quite capable, also, of according to a particular book its own specific purpose.[8] Indeed, God can inspires people to reveal something about him without their knowing of it, or knowing the meaning behind their words, as St Edith Stein masterfully explains:
Must the inspired person who is the instrument of a divine revelation be aware of the fact? Must he know that he has been illuminated, must he himself have received a revelation? We may well imagine cases where none of this is true. It is not impossible that someone utter a revelation without realizing it, without having received a revelation from God, without even being aware that he is speaking in Gods name or feeling supported by Gods Spirit in what he says and how he says it. He may think he is only voicing his own insight and in the words of his choosing.
Thus Caiphas says in the Sanhedrin : You know nothing and do not consider that it is better for you that one man die for the people and not the whole people parish. And John adds: but his he said not of himself but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the people Hence Caiphas spoke in Gods name and followed divine instructions without either knowing it or wishing to do so. John, however, knows that Caiphas was speaking Gods word and perhaps that he was himself enlightened by God as he wrote this. Does John know the prophetic meaning of Caiphas words through a revelation accorded him? Quite possibly. But it may also be that the fulfillment of those words in the death of Jesus and Johns view of the overall work of salvation made him realize their prophetic nature.[9]
Now this is not to say it is the norm, nor common, but, as we see, a person inspired by God does not have to understand the meaning of their words, nor that they are actually saying something that will be collected together as being inspired by God. The intention of God as the inspired author of Scripture does not have to be one with the intended meaning of the human author, and indeed, could be one which runs contrary to what such a human might have thought (as, for example, we find in the case of Jonah).
Thus, it is important to discuss inspiration, but as the Pontifical Biblical Commission warns us, we must not follow the simplistic interpretation found within fundamentalism:
Fundamentalism is right to insist on the divine inspiration of the Bible, the inerrancy of the word of God and other biblical truths included in its five fundamental points. But its way of presenting these truths is rooted in an ideology which is not biblical, whatever the proponents of this approach might say. For it demands an unshakable adherence to rigid doctrinal points of view and imposes, as the only source of teaching for Christian life and salvation, a reading of the Bible which rejects all questioning and any kind of critical research.[10]
And, it is especially when people take the Bible as history where this becomes the problem. Fundamentalism also places undue stress upon the inerrancy of certain details in the biblical texts, especially in what concerns historical events or supposedly scientific truth.[11] It creates a false, blasphemous view of God through its simplistic understanding of the text, and demand adherence to that simplistic view, with the explanation that if one denies this scheme, one must reject Scripture itself. There is no basis by which one can understand the deeper, spiritual value of revelation. And it is for this reason it ends up creating an evil-looking God, and promotes the acceptance of intrinsic evils such as racism or genocide as being good if and when God commanded them. Fundamentalism likewise tends to adopt very narrow points of view. It accepts the literal reality of an ancient, out-of-date cosmology simply because it is found expressed in the Bible; this blocks any dialogue with a broader way of seeing the relationship between culture and faith. Its relying upon a non-critical reading of certain texts of the Bible serves to reinforce political ideas and social attitudes that are marked by prejudicesracism, for examplequite contrary to the Christian Gospel.[12] While simple, it is this simplicity which leads to a letter that kills, because it requires a denial of reason when engaging the faith, and leading to intellectual suicide:
The fundamentalist approach is dangerous, for it is attractive to people who look to the Bible for ready answers to the problems of life. It can deceive these people, offering them interpretations that are pious but illusory, instead of telling them that the Bible does not necessarily contain an immediate answer to each and every problem. Without saying as much in so many words, fundamentalism actually invites people to a kind of intellectual suicide. It injects into life a false certitude, for it unwittingly confuses the divine substance of the biblical message with what are in fact its human limitations.[13]
No wonder St Mark the Ascetic warned us to be careful when we interpreted Scripture. He understood how people would confuse the human side of Scripture with its divine meaning, and how that would end up creating a false, humanly constructed, image of God. A God presented in the image of fallen humanity can only be a monster, the monster which we see proclaimed by fundamentalists the world over.
Footnotes
[1] Mark the Monk, On the Spiritual Law in Counsels on the Spiritual Life. Trans. Tim Vivian and Augustine Casiday (Crestwood, NY: St Vladimirs Seminary Press, 2009), 93.
[2] Pope Benedict, Regensburg Lecture, Sept 12, 2006.
[3] Richard R. Gaillardetz, Teaching with Authority: A Theology of the Magisterium of the Church (Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press, 1997), 84.
[4] Dei Verbum 15 (Vatican Translation).
[5] Now the sons of Rimmon the Beerothite, Rechab and Baanah, set out, and about the heat of the day they came to the house of Ishbosheth, as he was taking his noonday rest. And behold, the doorkeeper of the house had been cleaning wheat, but she grew drowsy and slept; so Rechab and Baanah his brother slipped in. When they came into the house, as he lay on his bed in his bedchamber, they smote him, and slew him, and beheaded him. They took his head, and went by the way of the Arabah all night, and brought the head of Ishbosheth to David at Hebron. And they said to the king, Here is the head of Ishbosheth, the son of Saul, your enemy, who sought your life; the LORD has avenged my lord the king this day on Saul and on his offspring (2 Sam 4:5-8 RSV).
[6] St Neilos the Ascetic, Ascetic Discourse in The Philokalia. Volume I. Trans. And ed. By G.E.H. Palmer, Philip Sherrard and Kallistos Ware (London: Faber and Faber, 1983), 210.
[7] Origen, On First Principles in ANF(4), 364.
[8] Pontifical Biblical Commission, The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church (March 18, 1994), III-B.2
[9] St Edith Stein, Ways to know God in Knowledge and Faith. Trans. Walter Redmond (Washington, DC: ICS Publications, 2000), 103.
[10] Pontifical Biblical Commission, The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church, I-F.
[11] Ibid.
[12] Ibid.
[13] Ibid.
In some sense you are, or are attempting to appeal to such, to make or present the argument as some sort of problem to be solved.
The answer is what it is. It isn’t a problem.
The universe is immensely old. Figuring out whereby some perspective riding a beam of light it could only be a few thousand years old is an exercise in creationist apologetics.
Thank you for your 2 cents, boatbums.
I clarified that, of course, Christians have always felt life is sacred. However, the Holy Spirit guided the Church in expanding on that in recently stated doctrine which was declared infallible dogma.
In other words, the Catholic Church, of course, has always taught that life is sacred, but recently, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Church was led to declare, without any possibility of error or wiggle room, that life is sacred and that Catholics MUST not only believe that but practice that in their daily lives by avoiding contraception and refusing to support the practice of abortion in any way. That’s the newer dogma.
Yes; I believe murder is wrong
Why?
I don't get to call heresy. The Church does; we are discussing Christianity here. Any departure from Christianity is heresy at least. For that matter, your belief that Jesus is disembodied might be considered heretical or at least mistaken by many Christians.
And? That does not make it so. Heresy is declared by the Church.
This says that Jesus is merely the Firstborn, and we are exactly as Jesus, only subordinate to Him. As Jesus was born (or created) so are all humans.
I would strike the words merely, exactly, and created. Even then, the statement would not be an adequate summary of what Mormons believe about Jesus Christ.
This is not about you. What does LDS doctrine say?
This teaches that if I attain this level, I will have my own universe and become a god over it.
I cannot find the word universe in the text of the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, or Pearl of Great Price. The word appears in the study aids attached to the Bible, but these are not considered canonical. So far as I can tell, the idea of multiple universes is to be found nowhere in the LDS scriptures. That does not mean the idea is untrue, only that God has not revealed it to us. I would expect God to reveal it if and when He considers it important for us to know.
Neither is the term biological diversity, yet the people of that time practiced it with their animals and in their revulsion towards human incest. If one attaining the celestial heaven is to become a god and have all power, then there must some compartment or universe that he has all power over.
No doubt you can find Mormons who would agree with your interpretation of D&C 132. However, it is not the only possible interpretation. I personally do not believe it.
The point is, what is the official doctrine?
I will admit that I cannot find anything about virtual ownership of women by the husbands or eternal pregnancy in the BoM or the D&C, only in the JoD, which seems to have fluctuating levels of authority depending upon the mood of the day.
You are unlikely to find either doctrine in the LDS scriptures. You might find something in the Journal of Discourses, but that has nev er been considered scripture by the Latter-day Saints.
What is the JoD, then? What is its purpose?
Hmmm; I'd say, the left one...
This assumes that is nothing more than love, which is wrong. Love is balanced off of holiness. Both coexist. God can seek "vengence" because He is holy. God can be jealous because He is holy. Neither of these characteristics would, or could, be described as "loving" characteristics. Yet, God tells us in many places that He does seek vengences and He is a jealous God.
It is folly to think God is only love and forgiveness. This is not the God of scripture.
The Bible doesn't give us a "definitive age" for anything. It reveals a tension between God's view from eternity (especially noticeable in Genesis 13 as A-G has pointed out) and the view from man's contingent, finite position within that eternity i.e., "within God's Time" which is (from our human point of view) "no-time," or timelessness.... Humans experience time in a way radically different than God does, Who sees everything in heaven and on earth "from Alpha to Omega" simultaneously that is, ALL AT ONCE, as if in a single eternal moment.
We humans, on the other hand, are relentlessly conditioned to sense time as serial and irreversible, moving moment to moment from past to present to future.
Moreover, the Bible does not purport to be a textbook in physics.
You wrote:
The universe is immensely old [current estimate of ~1415 billion years]. Figuring out whereby some perspective riding a beam of light it could only be a few thousand years old is an exercise in creationist apologetics.Well that would be your interpretation, now wouldn't it, allmendream? Still, I think such an interpretation would come as a surprise to Gerald Schroeder.... I strongly doubt he is doing "creationist apologetics." Looks more to me like he's trying to explicate a lesson in the relativity of time....
Why don't you read him, and find out for yourself?
Because God said it, it is true.
Must go and get dinner on the table now, DrewsMum. But I'll look back in a little later on, this evening.
Thank you so much for writing!
WHOSE viewpoint? One's own?
I don't know. You seemed to be questioning the Catholic Church's claims on the basis that they shouldn't need time for the doctrines to develop, as though the claim to the Keys(which, as far as I can see, have nothing to do with doctrine), to being the true Church (ditto,pretty much), and having apostolic authority (ditto,yet again)somehow implied that we should have known and promulgated everything at once.
In my what-passes-for-a-mind the question is further vexed because SOMEBODY's going to be interpreting in any event. Interpreting is what happens in Bible Class, in homilies, in conversation, in what Phillip did with the Ethiopian Eunuch. I don't see how it can be avoided.
Well, could it be, Resty, that upon picking up the BoM in those early days, you were reading 2 Nephi at length? ('Cause if so, you were reading the Bible indirectly -- and of course, the Bible gives "peace and comfort").
2 Nephi 7 --> a copy of Isaiah 50
2 Nephi 8 --> a copy of Isaiah 51 [Ralson notes: "even italicized words that were added later to the King James Version for clarification, are found here"]
2 Nephi 12 --> a copy of Isaiah 2
2 Nephi 13 --> a copy of Isaiah 3
2 Nephi 14 --> a copy of Isaiah 4
2 Nephi 15 --> a copy of Isaiah 5
2 Nephi 16 --> a copy of Isaiah 6
2 Nephi 17 --> a copy of Isaiah 7
2 Nephi 18 --> a copy of Isaiah 8
2 Nephi 19 --> a copy of Isaiah 9
2 Nephi 20 --> a copy of Isaiah 10
2 Nephi 21 --> a copy of Isaiah 11
2 Nephi 22 --> a copy of Isaiah 12
2 Nephi 23 --> a copy of Isaiah 13 [and please note...that the italicized words of Isaiah 13, KJ Version during Joseph Smith's day, were not in the original Hebrew from which the KJV was translated...So if they weren't in the Hebrew, how did Nephi get them? Did he reach into the future of 1611 in the UK, and superimpose them into golden plates between 559 and 545 BC?]
2 Nephi 24 --> a copy of Isaiah 14
2 Nephi 27 --> a copy of Isaiah 29
And in addition to the above, thousands & thousands of 17th-century English phrases & sentences & vocab that originated in the KJV Bible just "happened" to pop up as the Nephite equivalents in the 1st century A.D. and before... (Gee, wow! How did that happen?)
Anyway, as you would have read many of those English tidbit phrases in the BoM -- not knowing that they were published in English (1611) LONG BEFORE the BoM (1830) -- they would have likewise emitted a degree of "peace and comfort."
So, here's the Q, Resty: Was the Bible as the original source of much of the BoM -- your original source of that "peace and comfort?"
(If you have any journals from that time period, I dare you...look @ the BoM references you wrote down...any from 2 Nephi? A LOT of them from 2 Nephi??? Are those references similar to what can be found in the Bible???)
If you review your journal history, you may have a case of mistaken sourcing on your hands...
(Lds lurkers...I dare you to consult your own early journals referencing BoM refs with detailed diligence)
I’m sure (which, as we all know, means “I’m guessing”) that ‘dividing’ here is a Semitism, related to the root of the word Binah, discernment. The root verb means to cut or divide and it’s etymology displays how important valid distinctions are.
Not according to the text of the Last Supper.
Just repeating your words because they sound so lovely. 8~)
Christ did not leave us a book, Christ left us the Word in the form of Tradition that produced the book.
ph
In 3 of the 4 gospel accounts He said that this is the new testament in His blood. In 1st and in 2nd Corinthians and also in Hebrews it is made clear that a new covenant is what is being referred to. In all six locations the same Greek word is used.
You said earlier: “We both agree on that. But does that give either of us a license to tell other people that they are “in error?”
Be careful: For as the Holy Scriptures tell us, As we judge, so shall we be judged: The good Lord may say the same thing to you and/or me some day. “
Now you say (when asked why you believe murder is wrong):
“Because God has told us that it is wrong unlawfully to to deprive a fellow human being of his life, which is a divine Gift of God.
Because God said it, it is true.”
So do you believe in judging murderers? If I tell you I’m gonna go kill someone, you would tell me no I shouldn’t and that it is wrong to kill. But isn’t that just YOU’RE interpretation of scripture??? What if I say that I don’t interpret it the same as you and I think I can kill someone I don’t like??
Do you see the problem with claiming that we all interpret differently?? The Bible is clear....the majority of the “symbolism” in the Bible pertains to prophesy and endtimes...and you are correct about UNLAWFULLY killing. One needs only to search the scripture (rightly dividing the word = which just means do not take things out of context to fit us as we please)
Sure we all have different gifts and different callings, but the message of salvation is the same. Sin is the same for EVERYONE. When Jesus told Peter: you hold the keys to the kingdom of Heaven....and then after Jesus ascended and the people asked Peter what must we do to be saved? (that’s who I would have asked also since Jesus gave him the “keys” and all ;0) ) He answered them. Those requirements for salvation are for EVERYONE....as was preached all throughout the New Testament. The Christian message was changed in 325 AD at the Council of Nicea because the Roman church was getting worried about those preaching the apostles doctrine (it was spreading like wildfire and Rome wanted to maintain their power)....They changed the apostles’ baptism to one that fit their own view and thus messed with the plan of salvation, spreading a lie about how one is to be baptised.....when scripture is VERY clear....very....it is not “figuratively speaking”...
Also the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion....and if we go by the theory that everyone could have their “own” beliefs and be correct, then that would cause massive confusion. The Bible also says there is ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM....and it also says that straight is the way and NARROW is the gate to Heaven, but WIDE is the road to Hell. a “narrow” gate doesn’t mean there are many different ways to get there...there is only ONE....
I believe you said it earlier...we all agree there is no salvation outside of Christ. BINGO....The Bible also says:
“Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
NEITHER IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. “
sorry. didn’t mean to type a book...
Sorry folks; but I have NO idea what I was thinking when I typed that!
I was confusing new COVENANT with new PRACTICE:
or how a once-a-year meal of REMEMBERENCE got morphed into a ‘every time the church doors are open’ ritual.
I had none of these complaints. But thanx for sharing despite your lack of credibility.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.