The Mormons The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints

Australian Catholic Truth Society ^ | 1966 Updated to1967 | REV. DR. L. RUMBLE, M.S.C.

[Elsie]

You have left OUT the most IMPORTANT Mormon 'scripture' - the Book of ABRAHAM!

Read and study about THAT and ask GOD if Joseph Smith is a translator or not.

[ejonesie22]

So much effort to avoid answering simple questions, but you do stay on that LDS Company line.

I especially love the "distract the reader" part, because I cannot hold a candle to the LDS in doing such, as you have so ably demonstrated, therefore do not even attempt it.

I asked a simple set of questions about reading creeds to understand how the various Christian traditions view the term Catholic and then asked you to explain to me how we can all come together without any discord to share the message of Christ's Redeeming grace if we are not of the same family, how we can respect and accept each others baptisms without issue. These are questions you won't answer because you can't answer them without telling the tell.

So lets, for the sake of the lurkers if nothing else, give you another chance to avoid the issue, a new question to not answer, something I missed before.

You are talking about the "Great Apostasy" but which one. It seems that you are talking about the one that inspired the Protestant reformation some 1500 years after Christ's death with in the context of this particular thread.

However the LDS believe the great apostasy occurred not long after his Ascension (more of the "Christ is a bad HR person" idea I guess) so which one are you thinking of?

If it is the former then again we need not deal with Smith and his vision because the Church "stayed intact" well after the time of the apostasy he is trying to "fix" ergo he is on a false mission. If it is the latter, well since it did not happen we don't have to deal with it. See the real Christ is smart enough to pick folks who can keep his Church going for more than a couple of generations.

For the lurkers understand that Catholic is seen as the universal Church (indeed that is what the word Catholic means, universal), not just the one in Rome, but the body of all those who follow the true Christ, something that has indeed withstood the gates of hell however you see them.

Some feel The Roman Church organization went off the reservation in the middle ages, and in some ways they did from an operational sense, and they feel the Protestants are misguided brothers but still followers of Christ, a very important concept. The Orthodox feel the same way etc. We all see each other as brothers and sister who disagree on a lot of earthly man centric operational issues, something Christ even knew would happen when he told us in his Father's house there are many rooms. In the end be one Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox we are all brothers and sisters in Christ and hold the same core beliefs of his life and mission and follow the same all powerful truine God.

The secret is to find the room you feel most comfortable in here on Earth as long as you follow him.

The real him...

[Elsie]

Elsie, I don’t see Protestants around here attempting to their beliefs either.

Sorry; but WE are NOT the ones playing defense here!

OUR 'church' was not started by an ignorant, 14 yo farmboy who listened to two PERSONAGES - creatures that fit PERFECTLY the Bibles description of Angels of Light.

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IF you can get MORMONism over THAT hurdle; then get back to me.

[Elsie]

The more anti Mormon stuff posted on this site, the more strong grows my faith.

The more MORMON writings posted, that cannot be defended, on this site, show's just how PATHETIC are the 'believers' in that religion.

[Elsie]

You had to go way back to 1967 to find this article.

Pshaw!

That's NOTHING!!!

We can 'go back' a LOT farther than THAT, showing MORMONism's heresies!

[Elsie]

 

From the essay:

 

 

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From MORMONism's own website:

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Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

 

 

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
    
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

[Elsie]

My wife is persistent in trying to get me to “Get on your (my) knees and pray about the truthfulness of the BoM”, so that I will become an active mormon again.

ALL of the SLC MORMONs should get on THEIR knees and find out GOD's PUNISHMENT for NOT following D&C 132 completely!!!

[ejonesie22]

Me: Don't rely solely on you emotions but trust the eyes ears and brain God gave you to divine truth from fiction.

Certainly that is a reasonable approach and should be of no issue to LDS members, right?

You: Also be sure to ask Him to let you know how He is going to let you know what is truth and what it isn’t.

I just gave the answer to that question, you use your eyes, your ears and your mind as well as your you heart. Any one of those can be deceived but when we do as God intended, let reason and faith walk hand in hand, the truth is apparent, so that question you pose is already answered by God.

Unless the LDS is uncomfortable with that...

[ejonesie22]

(ouch)

[ejonesie22]

New revelation in the making?

[ejonesie22]

Well said.

The test of faith is a procees for both the mind and the Spirit. If it were not so there would have been no need for God to give us intellect, much less free will.

[In veno, veritas]

Good luck. I've had similar issues with my wife; feelings tend to trump logic (and what they've been taught). Fortunately, we're just different flavors of Christian. But I must caution you, that it is not within our power to convert anyone. That job is solely the Holy Spirit's. All we can do is stand and witness to what we believe.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“When I read the above statement, it made me feel joyous because God never chooses “the kind of person” people would think He should choose. He uses the foolish things to confound the “wise.””

yes, but you are referring to the Bible, Saundra.
Joe Smith’s vile life of deception, lust and materialism
are all condemned in the same Bible.

Do you really think God would choose a vile man to use
as a prophet?

Can you name some other vile people God chose?

Or were you referring to one of the mormon gods in your
post? Could you clarify that point?

[SZonian]

"Good luck. I've had similar issues with my wife; feelings tend to trump logic (and what they've been taught)."

I know exactly what you're saying. I can't get around the emotional "feelings" part with her. I know it sounds bad to say it, but it's the truth.

"But I must caution you, that it is not within our power to convert anyone. That job is solely the Holy Spirit's."

As for converting her, it's not my intent, I'm just trying to show her what and why I believe. But I do appreciate the warning. It'll help me stay on point.

"All we can do is stand and witness to what we believe."

Thanks for the reminder. I have to remember to just stay out of the emotional briar patch. I sure don't want to create a larger or insurmountable chasm in our relationship.

We'll see how it works out.

[Normandy]

I don’t believe it is an abuse of James 1:5 to think that someone who is confused about religious issues to turn to God, the source of all truth, for guidance. Jesus tells us that if we ask we shall receive, and if we knock it shall be opened unto us.

God can communicate directly to those who humbly approach Him in faith and provide enlightenment through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Regarding the Book of Mormon, I have read it and in prayer asked God for a confirmation of its truthfulness. I have received that confirmation through the power of the Holy Ghost.

[william clark]

You’re likely right that the “priesthood of all believers” was “discovered” as a result of the reformation. As a Protestant, I would be inclined attribute this to the desire of the existing Roman Catholic church to not place any emphasis on the relevant scriptures as to do so would presumably undermine the authority of their earthly priesthood, an office that is not formally established for the church in the New Testament. The only formal priesthood cited is that which Christ holds as our new high priest after the order of Melchizedek.

If you read Hebrews, you’ll find that the Melchizedek priesthood of Christ (and him alone, which he holds forever) is not an addition to the Aaronic/Levitical priesthood. It supplants it. The scriptures describe a “change” in the priesthood. There is no more need for an earthly priesthood or the duties associated with the law that they performed. Christ fulfilled the law, and brought the new covenant, which the old ordinances had no part of. This was, of course, underscored by the tearing of the veil in the temple upon Christ’s death on the cross, and his words “It is finished.” The old covenant was done, finished. Man could now, through Christ, approach the Father. I would suggest you do a thorough reading of Hebrews with regard to the priesthood.

As for your challenge for evidence that the apostasy wasn’t total, I’m afraid the burden is on you to prove that it was. I think it’s much harder to prove such an apostasy given the growth of the church than to simply believe that it fell into correctable error. For that matter, if we agree that the Reformation brought about some appropriate corrections, it seems to me that the mere occurence of the Reformation, in and of itself would pretty well prove that the apostasy hadn’t been total. After all, a total apostasy would mean that no one would have had the ability to see the errors.

But you seem to have redefined the notion of total apostasy from that which the LDS has historically proposed, which is that there were no genuine followers of Christ for all those centuries. After all, how could there be if “all their practioners” were corrupt?

You raise valid questions regarding the selection of the canon and so forth, much more than I’m equipped to get into here, but let’s not let those distract us from some fundamental points.

None of your concerns about Catholic tradition vs. Protestant teaching really impact the bottom line issue of whether or not the Book of Mormon (and subsequent LDS theology) are valid. Certainly if you apply the same level of skepticism to LDS history/theology, you must abandon it far sooner than that of historic Christianity, as the weaknesses are so much more obvious and profound. Indeed, this is why there is such dependence on the “testimony,” because it takes off the table all those good, valid questions you have for historic Christianity when it comes to examining LDS teachings.

And just to clear the air (I hope), while I am a Protestant who believes that Roman Catholicism is in error on many teachings and is loaded with traditions that I think can potentially get in the way of genuine belief and even salvation; I nevertheless believe that, at its core, it is legitimately Christian because of its view of God and the atoning sacrifice of Christ. I can consider Roman Catholics to be my Christian brethren, even though I might pound the table with them over some specific elements of their beliefs.

[william clark]

Again, you’ve assumed that the confirmation you received is from the Holy Ghost and not the movement of a lying spirit. By what standard do you make that determination unless you use the established Word of God? Sure, anyone who is confused about “religious issues” should absolutely turn to God for guidance. Why else do you think we have a Bible? But if you turn away from that and to another standard of truth, you have opened yourself up to all manner of deception.

No feeling of confirmation that you get is going to be God, in effect, saying,”Yeah, forget what I told you in the Bible about who I am, what I’ve done, and how you can determine truth from error. The Book of Mormon is true in spite of all that.”

[ejonesie22]

Regarding the Book of Mormon, I have read it and in prayer asked God for a confirmation of its truthfulness. I have received that confirmation through the power of the Holy Ghost.

There in lies the problem Normandy.

God gave us minds as well as spirits in order to give us the ability to test the answers we receive in prayer to know their source. You follow the Bible, you know that the Evil One can take on the guise of an Angel of Light, indeed he is as convincing as the Lord himself in that regard. We use reason to test that which is testable within what he tells us to divine between God and those posing as God.

To not use the mind and reason to test if the spirit that spoke to you is truly God does both a disservice to you and the the Almighty.

If the BOM were true there would be no need for God to hide the DNA that even BYU professors now admit they can't find. There would be no need for God to allow his followers to have to "have faith" in that which should be tangible such as Nephite ruins and such. He would not give half a revelation to one of his true prophets and leave him hanging, he would have been specific on such things as peoples and locations.

God has no need for myths and no need for such games.

Since these are all issues that cause the BOM and other LDS doctrine and scripture to fail the test of reason, then it cannot be of God, the creator of all things including reason and faith.

[urroner]

Thanks for not creating bunny trails all over the place william.

As far as Christ being the only one to hold the Melchizedek Priesthood, let’s agree to disagree here. There is plenty of evidence that there were two priesthoods during the time of the First Temple, Solomon’s Temple, but there isn’t enough time for me to go into that.

You said:

“For that matter, if we agree that the Reformation brought about some appropriate corrections, it seems to me that the mere occurence of the Reformation, in and of itself would pretty well prove that the apostasy hadn’t been total. After all, a total apostasy would mean that no one would have had the ability to see the errors.

But you seem to have redefined the notion of total apostasy from that which the LDS has historically proposed, which is that there were no genuine followers of Christ for all those centuries. After all, how could there be if “all their practioners” were corrupt?”

The Mormon Church has never taught that there were no genuine followers of Christ for all those centuries. From a book printed by FARMS that talked about the Apostasy,Early Christians in Disarray: Contemporary LDS Perspectives on the Christian Apostasy:

“The Latter-day Saint apostle M. Russell Ballard, for example, has written that the darkness of the Middle Ages refers to the absence of “the light of the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, including the authority of His holy priesthood,” yet he also notes that good Christians lived during this time.80 The apostle Dallin H. Oaks likewise affirmed that during the apostasy “men and women . . . kept the light of faith and learning alive” and that “we honor them as servants of God.”81 Indeed, despite his affinity with the work of Roberts, Talmage, and Smith, McConkie too acknowledged that “many good and noble souls lived during the dark ages, . . . and they received guidance from th[e] Spirit.”82”

80. M. Russell Ballard, Our Search for Happiness: An Invitation to Understand the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1993), 30—32.

81. Dallin H. Oaks, “Apostasy and Restoration,” Ensign, May 1995, 84—87.

82. McConkie, New Witness for the Articles of Faith, 477. See also, Compton, “Apostasy,” 1:58.

We even believe that the Reformers were inspired by God to do some of what they did.

It’s not about all the people becoming evil and corrupt and totally rejecting the word of God, it’s more about the loss of the priesthood. I realize that you don’t believe this, but I’m just letting you know what I believe.

You will find out that I don’t like arguing religion, but I do love discussing differences of beliefs and why people believe what they believe. I didn’t come here to prove the Mormon Church is true or that another faith is wrong. I also like to point out flaws in discussion logic and I don’t mind others pointing out flaws in my discussion logic also.

I started a thread a while ago about how to convince an agnostic about Christ. I really want to know what people would do to do that. Up front, I told people I was Mormon, but I was going to pretend to be an agnostic. For a lot of the thread I got anti-Mormon material thrown at me and people accused me of deceiving others by pretending to be an agnostic. I didn’t learn very much about how to go about trying to teach an agnostic about Christ unless it was preaching against the Mormon Church. I would love to do it again, but I feel that there are so many on this board who are so angry at the Mormon Church that I will leave that thread still thinking that the Mainstream Christian way to help an agnostic find Christ is to throw anti-Mormon material at them.

The thing I point out more often than not is that many of the arguments used against the Mormons can be used against many of those using those arguments.

Thanks.

[Tennessee Nana]

He uses the foolish things to confound the “wise.”
_______________________________________

Yes but the son of perdition Joey Smith wasnt foolish...

at least not in the way that verse denotes...

The false prophet Joey Smith was a conniving, calculating, cunning, cheating, sly, crafty, shred, scheming, inventive, resourceful, wily, devious, underhanded circus showman...

and he was a fool, but not that kind...

The fool Joey smith thought he could get away with spitting in the face of the Jesus of the Christian bible...

But that same Jesus destroyed the fool joey Smith...

Although Jesus did “use” that son of perdition Joey Smith as an example to other fools not to cross a Righteous God...

But never as a prophet...