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Posted on 04/18/2010 9:49:35 PM PDT by Judith Anne
I seriously wonder about some FReepers, sometimes. Any other person accused of a crime would be defended by every FReeper as being innocent until proven guilty by a court of law. I've seen whole threads written by men who have been accused of child abuse by ex-wives out to deny them their visitation rights or to wrest more money out of them. These men are rightly indignant, and furious about the unjust accusations that cannot be proven but are never withdrawn.
Yet where are those FReepers when a PRIEST is accused? Where is the presumption of innocence? Suddenly, every accusation becomes a verdict, and not only the accused but his entire organization and all its adherents are held responsible.
I can only wonder what some of these so-called conservatives (who so faithfully defend the Constitution) would do, if THEY were the ones accused! It is a nightmare for any man -- all of you know how even the accusation stains the man forever, even if it is proven false!
Not only that, many here assert that the problems of 30, 40 and even 50 years ago must be tried in the media TODAY!
Remember the Duke rape case? There are more similarities than differences here. The priests are accused, nifonged, and instead of being defended, they are vilified!
What other man of you could stand under the weight of such an accusation trumpeted by the press, and come out whole? None! And such accusations made, LONG after the statute of limitations has passed, sometimes even after the accused is dead and buried for YEARS -- are YOU one of those who automatically, reflexively, spitefully, and gleefully act as judge, jury, and executioner?
Women! What if it were YOUR HUSBAND, YOUR BROTHER, YOUR FATHER, YOUR UNCLE, YOUR SON who was accused? Wouldn't you want the best defense possible? Wouldn't YOU believe in their innocence? Wouldn't YOU help protect your loved ones as much as possible? And yet, YOU JUDGE THE CHURCH FOR DOING WHAT YOU WOULD DO?
Shame! Vast shame! On all who have sinned against the innocent!
BLESSED BE THE WORD OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE WAYS OF THE LORD.
BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
Apparently you are.
There. Fixed. And otherwise TRUE.
When we "let go" and "let God" - He takes control. But if we pick it up again, He lets us.
The classic example is prayer (emphasis mine:)
My daughter is getting more like her every day. She says there is one area that she still tends to pick it up again and handle it herself. But she also says that every time she does, a disaster follows. LOLOL!
God's Name is I AM.
PRAISE GOD.
ANSWER TO PRAYER.
SO BLESSED that we can agree on this, finally.
Certainly forgiveness is not at all about our absolving the perpetrator of their wrong against God. That is between God and them.
And, certainly it is not about us being foolish to invite the axe murderer to a weekend stay—a 2nd time!!! LOL.
INDEED.
And, in some cases, individuals are ‘consigned to satan’ for ‘discipline’ as Paul noted.
I quite agree.
Alamo-Girl outlined the Biblical procedure quite well above.
PRAISE GOD!
You have been an inspiration to me in such regards. I’m not near in your league by far on that score but I’m a lot further than I was when we first met hereon. PRAISE GOD FOR YOUR TESTIMONY AND YOUR EXAMPLE.
IIRC, that’s about 5 of us who’ve recognized that phenomena in releasing the other person to God fully and forgiven-ly.
Thanks much for your kind reply.
I think part of the answer is that, no, we don’t know exactly what each individual non-Catholic means when he says the saints are dead.
Also just as the argument seems to take very seriously their death, so much so that they are placed beyond the reach of legitimate communication from those who have not shuffled off the mortal coil — OUR side takes their being alive, members of the body which is Christ and whose union and communion is made possible by the Holy Spirit, more seriously than their having ‘died.’
And there’s no particular reason why what, for shorthand, I;ll call your side, should be granted the right to dominate the terminology NOR for our side to assume that we know in detail the opinion of each individual disagreeing with us about the communion of the saints.
There is a certain kabuki quality to the exchange, but when we think the currently being alive of the saints is, so to speak, operative,while some who disagree with us think that their death is more important AND when these differences also touch on the highest sort of theology (God and time) and on eschatology, it is probably good to go through the “set piece” early exchanges in case something new is being brought to the table.
At least, that’s why ->I<- respond to someone saying, say, “Dominic is dead,” by saying he’s alive. Mary is, surprise surprise, a special case.
The accessibility and the “vitality” of the saints is, for us, a doctrinal matter (duh), and for some people a very real experience (however the ‘objective’ observer might consider that.) I know people who strike me as eminently sane and not the least bit flighty who claim strong and vital relationships, “Friendships” with one or more saints.
For them, I ask you to imagine that it’s like somebody saying “Joe is dead,” and responding, “How can that be? I was just talking with him.”
Sigh.
I think I understand your reasoned perspective.
I guess that leaves it to us Prottys to use some term like
“Graduated Believer(s).”
For some reason, they fail to do so . . . and the —to me— inane exchanges perpetuate for the umpteen thousandth time.
It would set my teeth on edge sometimes, if I had any.
And thanks be to God and to you for your thoughtful, kind, encouraging and instructive replies on this thread.
Speaking of the Council of Constance, where Hus was declared heretic and burned at the stake, the fire beneath the feet of Hus was fuelled by Wycliffe's manuscripts. Those manuscripts were there because Wycliffe was posthumously declared a stiff-necked heretic at the same Council, and placed under the ban of the Church. It was decreed that his books be burned and his remains be exhumed. The exhumation was carried out in 1428 when, at the command of Pope Martin V, his remains were dug up, burned, and the ashes cast into the River Swift at Lutterworth
Some further ponderings on the forgiveness issue . . .
It has often helped me to realize . . . from so many of my own long very dark nights of the soul . . .
that were I to have had the ‘right’ childhood and circumstances, I could have ended up doing virtually any fool sinful horrid thing as anyone else.
ALL OUR HEARTS ARE DECEITFULLY WICKED.
And it is VERY UNBIBLICAL ARROGANCE to think anything else.
God has shown me my ugliness in vivid detail . . . shoved my face in it very excruciatingly and more than once. That is one reason forgiveness is so easy for me.
As Christ said to the prostitute, I think it was . . . or about her . . . those love most who have been forgiven most. I know what that’s like in large measure.
It’s HAUGHTY, self-righteous arrogance to think that our sins are more holy than someone else’s sins.
THERE, BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD—THE GRACE OF GOD
THE
GRACE
OF
GOD
. . . go I.
The second one in particular will be very helpful to me because I keep remembering things I don't want to remember.
We prefer to think that it is because of our
—superior intellects;
—RELIGIOUS rituals;
—brilliant confessions and repentances availing ourselves of Christ’s forgiveness;
—uniquely wonderful personalities;
—personally wonderfully kosher choices and behaviors—well—sufficiently—at least better than those publicans/RC’s/Calvinists/Pentecostals over THERE!
—Christian or genetic heritage;
—middle or upper class status;
—education;
—IQ;
—an above average job category and status;
—honorable kids;
—belonging to the right congregation or denomination/institution
—graduating from the right university;
etc.
etc.
etc.
It’s ALLLLLLL FILTHY rags in Biblical terms so graphic the RM won’t allow me to use even the Scripture. It’s all chaff or worse.
Yet we think all our self-righteousness is a grand platform from which to withhold forgiveness from others and to exact punitive judgment on hapless others.
Sometimes, I think RELIGIOUS HAUGHTINESS is the worst kind of all.
I am not a believer in pacifism. I do not read scripture as endorsing pacifism. I wonder if you would expand on your application/interpretation of this verse. I am not being argumentative; to the contrary, I am genuinely interested in your thoughts.
Looks like this thread has rolled up the sidewalks and turned in for the night . . . which I’m about to do, as well.
Thanks all for an enlightening set of exchanges today.
Blessings,
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