Nifonging the Catholic Church

me ^ | April 18, 2010 | vanity

[Quix]

BLESSED BE THE WORD OF THE LORD.

BLESSED BE THE WAYS OF THE LORD.

BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Is the failed high school student council member with no life, no accomplishments and no esteem lecturing others on what or what not to do?

Apparently you are.

[roamer_1]

Anyone who has died on this world is dead "asleep" to us and no longer lives in this physical plane.

There. Fixed. And otherwise TRUE.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for sharing your testimony and insights, dear brother in Christ!

It is almost as though our unforgiveness binds them up in some sort of space that God won’t touch near as fully as He will when we have forgiven and let it go.

I've seen this phenomenon in many situations.

When we "let go" and "let God" - He takes control. But if we pick it up again, He lets us.

The classic example is prayer (emphasis mine:)

Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them]. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. – Mark 11:24-26

My mother had the kind of faith that she would pray about something and let it go. Done deal. There were many, many miracles in her long life. She didn't doubt God, she loved Him, believed Him and trusted Him.

My daughter is getting more like her every day. She says there is one area that she still tends to pick it up again and handle it herself. But she also says that every time she does, a disaster follows. LOLOL!

God's Name is I AM.

[Quix]

PRAISE GOD.

ANSWER TO PRAYER.

SO BLESSED that we can agree on this, finally.

Certainly forgiveness is not at all about our absolving the perpetrator of their wrong against God. That is between God and them.

And, certainly it is not about us being foolish to invite the axe murderer to a weekend stay—a 2nd time!!! LOL.

[Quix]

INDEED.

And, in some cases, individuals are ‘consigned to satan’ for ‘discipline’ as Paul noted.

I quite agree.

Alamo-Girl outlined the Biblical procedure quite well above.

[Quix]

PRAISE GOD!

You have been an inspiration to me in such regards. I’m not near in your league by far on that score but I’m a lot further than I was when we first met hereon. PRAISE GOD FOR YOUR TESTIMONY AND YOUR EXAMPLE.

IIRC, that’s about 5 of us who’ve recognized that phenomena in releasing the other person to God fully and forgiven-ly.

Thanks much for your kind reply.

[Mad Dawg]

I think part of the answer is that, no, we don’t know exactly what each individual non-Catholic means when he says the saints are dead.

Also just as the argument seems to take very seriously their death, so much so that they are placed beyond the reach of legitimate communication from those who have not shuffled off the mortal coil — OUR side takes their being alive, members of the body which is Christ and whose union and communion is made possible by the Holy Spirit, more seriously than their having ‘died.’

And there’s no particular reason why what, for shorthand, I;ll call your side, should be granted the right to dominate the terminology NOR for our side to assume that we know in detail the opinion of each individual disagreeing with us about the communion of the saints.

There is a certain kabuki quality to the exchange, but when we think the currently being alive of the saints is, so to speak, operative,while some who disagree with us think that their death is more important AND when these differences also touch on the highest sort of theology (God and time) and on eschatology, it is probably good to go through the “set piece” early exchanges in case something new is being brought to the table.

At least, that’s why ->I<- respond to someone saying, say, “Dominic is dead,” by saying he’s alive. Mary is, surprise surprise, a special case.

The accessibility and the “vitality” of the saints is, for us, a doctrinal matter (duh), and for some people a very real experience (however the ‘objective’ observer might consider that.) I know people who strike me as eminently sane and not the least bit flighty who claim strong and vital relationships, “Friendships” with one or more saints.

For them, I ask you to imagine that it’s like somebody saying “Joe is dead,” and responding, “How can that be? I was just talking with him.”

[Alamo-Girl]

CHRIST SET THE MODEL AND PATTER FOR FORGIVENESS ON THE CROSS: FATHER, FORGIVE THEM, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.

Indeed. Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

[Quix]

Sigh.

I think I understand your reasoned perspective.

I guess that leaves it to us Prottys to use some term like

“Graduated Believer(s).”

For some reason, they fail to do so . . . and the —to me— inane exchanges perpetuate for the umpteen thousandth time.

It would set my teeth on edge sometimes, if I had any.

[Alamo-Girl]

SOMETIMES, THOUGH, it seems like horrible things are easier for SOME to forgive than the daily niggly things between them and their spouses or parents or co-workers and bosses.s

Sad but true. Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

[Quix]

And thanks be to God and to you for your thoughtful, kind, encouraging and instructive replies on this thread.

[RegulatorCountry]

If Hus could be described as anything other than a forerunner of the Protestant Reformation and tremendous influence upon Martin Luther a century later, he would best be described as a Wycliffite. John Wycliffe was himself very influential Czech lands as a whole. Czech students at Oxford brought his Bible home to Prague, and Wycliffe's teachings resonated with the people.

Speaking of the Council of Constance, where Hus was declared heretic and burned at the stake, the fire beneath the feet of Hus was fuelled by Wycliffe's manuscripts. Those manuscripts were there because Wycliffe was posthumously declared a stiff-necked heretic at the same Council, and placed under the ban of the Church. It was decreed that his books be burned and his remains be exhumed. The exhumation was carried out in 1428 when, at the command of Pope Martin V, his remains were dug up, burned, and the ashes cast into the River Swift at Lutterworth

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for your encouragement, dear sister in Christ!

[Quix]

Some further ponderings on the forgiveness issue . . .

It has often helped me to realize . . . from so many of my own long very dark nights of the soul . . .

that were I to have had the ‘right’ childhood and circumstances, I could have ended up doing virtually any fool sinful horrid thing as anyone else.

ALL OUR HEARTS ARE DECEITFULLY WICKED.

And it is VERY UNBIBLICAL ARROGANCE to think anything else.

God has shown me my ugliness in vivid detail . . . shoved my face in it very excruciatingly and more than once. That is one reason forgiveness is so easy for me.

As Christ said to the prostitute, I think it was . . . or about her . . . those love most who have been forgiven most. I know what that’s like in large measure.

It’s HAUGHTY, self-righteous arrogance to think that our sins are more holy than someone else’s sins.

THERE, BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD—THE GRACE OF GOD

THE

GRACE

OF

GOD

. . . go I.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for that beautiful Scripture, dear sister in Christ, and thank you for sharing your insights!

[Alamo-Girl]

Beautiful prayers, dear brother in Christ, thank you for sharing them!

The second one in particular will be very helpful to me because I keep remembering things I don't want to remember.

[Quix]

We prefer to think that it is because of our

—superior intellects;
—RELIGIOUS rituals;

—brilliant confessions and repentances availing ourselves of Christ’s forgiveness;
—uniquely wonderful personalities;

—personally wonderfully kosher choices and behaviors—well—sufficiently—at least better than those publicans/RC’s/Calvinists/Pentecostals over THERE!

—Christian or genetic heritage;
—middle or upper class status;

—education;
—IQ;

—an above average job category and status;
—honorable kids;

—belonging to the right congregation or denomination/institution
—graduating from the right university;

etc.
etc.
etc.

It’s ALLLLLLL FILTHY rags in Biblical terms so graphic the RM won’t allow me to use even the Scripture. It’s all chaff or worse.

Yet we think all our self-righteousness is a grand platform from which to withhold forgiveness from others and to exact punitive judgment on hapless others.

Sometimes, I think RELIGIOUS HAUGHTINESS is the worst kind of all.

[delacoert]

While a plain reading of Luke 22:36 indicates that Jesus approved of self-defense, I am not sure that it’s a proper exegesis. My admittedly dim recollection of studying this verse is that it is best understood non-literally and not in isolation.

I am not a believer in pacifism. I do not read scripture as endorsing pacifism. I wonder if you would expand on your application/interpretation of this verse. I am not being argumentative; to the contrary, I am genuinely interested in your thoughts.

[Quix]

Looks like this thread has rolled up the sidewalks and turned in for the night . . . which I’m about to do, as well.

Thanks all for an enlightening set of exchanges today.

Blessings,