Posted on 04/03/2010 3:12:52 PM PDT by NYer
This is my 16th Easter.
For the first 38 years of my life I did not celebrate Easter because I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, a pseudo- Christian group with a very strange economy of salvation. It is not easy to describe life in a cult like Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is very dark. Even their light is darkness.
Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the Trinity, so they do not believe in the deity of Christ. They believe that Jesus was Michael the Archangel before he came to earth, and that after he was resurrected, he went back to being Michael the Archangel — but with the name “Jesus.” They do believe Jesus died (but not on a cross) to save mankind from sin and death by atoning for the disobedience of Adam. Jesus had to be a perfect man, to match Adam in every respect, and thus he takes Adam’s place as our father. I know this is weird — not to mention the whole ontological problem of how he is an angel, then a human, and then an angel again — but I’m telling you about it because I want you to know that I had an idea that I could call myself a Christian and believe Jesus died for me, without conceiving of Jesus as God.
Most of you reading this are like my grandchildren who have heard all their lives that Jesus died for you and that Jesus is God the Son –- true God from true God. It has never dawned on you, because it was always the light that you lived in.
But it dawned on me.
In 1993, after a long and harrowing period of life disruption, searching for the peace and transformative power that I read about in the New Testament, I had an encounter with Christ.
Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
My chains fell off, my heart was free,
I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
I did not know then that he was Deity, but I knew that he was not who the Jehovah’s Witnesses said he was. I knew that I would have to leave the religion that I had grown up in and known all my life. I would have to walk away from every relationship of my adult life. I went to a church.
Now to you, that might seem like the most natural thing in the world for me to do. You want to know about Jesus, you go to a church. But for me it was terrifying. I had always been told that churches housed demons. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not even like to turn their cars around in a 
church parking lot. But that visit to a church set me on the road to learning the truth about Jesus. It became pretty clear, pretty quickly that Christians worshiped Jesus. The fundamental fact of my religious upbringing had been that you only worshiped God (Jehovah), who is Jesus’ father. To worship anything or anyone else was to be guilty of idolatry. But there was a tractor beam on my heart. I had to figure out who Jesus really was.
Having left what I recognized to be a religion of error, I was very leery about falling into error or being misled once again. But I knew that I had to open my mind to the witness and the arguments of Christians around me in order to untwist the distorted way I had learned to read scripture.
A humorous skit put on one time at a meeting of ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses illustrated what I was facing. It featured a “Christian” trying to “help” a recently-exited Witness. When the ex-JW expressed confusion about Christian doctrine, the Christian said, “Oh, it’s easy. Just believe everything the opposite.”
“What are you talking about?” the baffled ex-JW asked.
“Well, you didn’t used to believe in the Trinity, and now you do. You didn’t used to believe in the deity of Christ, and now you do. You didn’t used to believe in the immortal soul, and now you do. You didn’t used to believe in going to heaven, and now you do. You didn’t used to believe in celebrating Christmas, and now you do. See, everything is the opposite. It’s easy.”
The appreciative laughter with which this was greeted gave testament to the fact that it is not easy! And the more you care, really care, about the truth, the harder your struggle is. If you have always lived in the truth, you can’t imagine how hard it is.
For a while I lived in a partial shadow. I was in love with Jesus, but still didn’t know what to make of all the Christian adoration of Him? How could I explain this phenomenon if he were not God?
I found some relief by latching onto the biblical image of the Church as the Bride of Christ. After all, what would be more natural than for a bride to be focused on her bridegroom? Of course Christians sang love songs to Jesus! It was the Jehovah’s Witnesses who were strange — like a bride who ignored her groom and tried to give all her affection to her father-in-law instead.
Meanwhile, I was participating in Christian prayer and worship to the best of my limited understanding. I also asked questions, and I studied… and studied and studied. Finally I was turned on to reading the Early Church Fathers. It started to became clear to me that this teaching — that Jesus was Divine, was God in the flesh — was really Christian teaching from the beginning, was the apostolic witness.
There was just one problem left in my mind: If Jesus was God, then that man on the Cross was God.
It would mean that God had died.
It would mean that God had died… for me.
For all time, there will be no more astounding, no more elevating, no more humbling proposal to a human soul than this.
And can it be that I should gain
an interest in the Savior’s blood!
Died he for me — who caused his pain –
For me who him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be
that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
He left his Father’s throne above
(so free, so infinite his grace!),
emptied himself of all but love,
and bled for Adam’s helpless race.
’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
for O my God, it found out me!
Amazing love! How can it be
that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
The sun had come up in my life.
[The lyrics are from the hymn, "And Can it Be (Amazing Love)", by Charles Wesley. Enjoy the lovely rendition here.]
Thank you for posting this data.
It’s helpful.
>>I wont call you a liar because I don't think that you 'honestly' Know Who or What you are!
That's because you're too dense to figure it out.
>When you slander a group of people .. at Least get your stories straight!
So I'm "Slandering" the JWs? Where am I maliciously lying about them? All I brought up in the conversation was the JW policy on sex offenders and the JWs fitting the definition of a cult. Both were backed up with references Point to any part of the conversation where I stated something that was false or misleading and I'll retract, or else, screw off.
>If you are helping X-Witnesses .. Who's helping You?
Never said I was helping XJWs. You seem to be ignorant of what a support group is for, as well ignorant of many things. I've flamed with many JWs and JW sympathizers before, but this is what usually happens:
I bring up a controvertible topic that the JW is uncomfortable with.
The JW then accuses me of lying.
I bring up data to affirm my statement.
The JW/JW sympathizerstill accuses me of lying.
I press the JW/JW sympathizer to disprove my data.
The JW/JW sympathizer still accuses me of lying.
I press the JW/JW sympathizer to disprove my data.
The JW/JW sympathizer either runs off, still accuses me of lying, launches a personal attack, or tries to get a mod to step in under the guise of "religious persecution".
So far, you're at the last stage. I've yet to see you bring up any data to back up your disagreement, so you result to personal attacks, innuendos or accusations of lying. Put up or shut up. Does the JW religion not fit even the most liberal criteria of a controlling cult and does the JW religion hide sex abusers or don't they? And if they don't, do you have the data from reliable sources to back up your claim that I'm "slandering" the religion or "lying?". I have lots of data and video to say otherwise.
Ahhh.
Thx.
I don't know why you conveniently ignored the two posts where you made conflicting statements of 'Who' you are.
In post #86 .. You state that you have been a Jehovah's Witness for most of your life and then .. when confronted, you turn right around in post #90 and Profoundly State that you aren't and have never been a JW.
Now you expect me to explain Why I have my doubts about Who you are?
This, like most of your posts makes no sense!?
I am the one who was admonished by a Moderator .. and rightly so!
I like so many here get caught up in the heat of the moment and post a response that can be considered a personal attack.
I did apologize for it.
There isn’t and has never been any “slum properties” within a mile of Fort Lauderdale’s beach front.
Where is your documentation? Here is mine. There is nothing in the Greek of the New Testament even to imply two pieces of timber. These (+) crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian sun-god, and are first seen on a coin of Julius Caesar, 100-44 B.C., and then on a coin struck by Caesar’s heir (August), 20 B.C. On the coins of Constantine the most frequent symbol is (xp)(this will have to do-I don’t know how to use a Greek font, sorry), but the same symbol is used without the surrounding circle, and with the four equal arms vertical and horizontal. and this was the symbol specially venerated as the “Solar Wheel”. It should be stated that Constantine was a “sun-god worshipper, and would not enter the “Church” till some quarter of century after the legend of his having seen such a cross in the heavens(Eusebius, Vit. Const. I.37).
The evidence is the same as to the pre-Christian (phallic) symbol in Asia, Africa, and Egypt,, whether we consult Nineveh by Sir A.H. Layard (ii 2123), or Manners and Customs of the Ancient Egyptians, by Sir J. Gardner Wilkinson, iii pp. 24,26,43,44,46,52,82,136.
Dr. Schliemann gives the same evidence in his Ilios (1880), recording his discoveries on the site of prehistoric Troy. See pp. 337,350,353,521,523.
Dr. Max Ohnefalsch-Richter gives the same evidence from Cyprus; and these are “the oldest extant Phoenician inscriptions” ;see his Kypros, the Bible, and Homer: Oriental Civilization, Art, and Religion in the Ancient Times, Plates XlX, XXV, XXVl, XXX, XXXl, XXXll, XL, LVlll, LXlX. &c.
The Catacombs in Rome bear the same testimony: “Christ” is never represented there “hanging on a cross”, and the cross itself is only portrayed in a veiled and hesitating manner. In the Egyptian Churches the cross was a pagan symbol of life borrowed by the Christians, and interpreted in pagan manner. See Encyclopedia Brit., 11th (Camb.) ed. vol. 14, p273.
In his ‘Letters From Rome’ Dean Burgon says: I question whether a cross occurs on any Christian monumentof the first four centuries.”
In Mrs. Jameson’s famous ‘History of our Lord as Exemplified in Works of Art’ she says (vol.ii p.315): “It must be owned that ancient objects of art, as far as hitherto known afford no corroboration of the use of the cross in the simple transverse form familiar to us, at any period preceding, or even closely succeeding, the time of Chrysostom”, and Chrysostom wrote half a century after Constatine.
“The invention of the Cross” by Helena the mother of Constatine (326) , though it means her finding of the cross, may or may not be true: but the “invention” of its use in later time, are truths of which we need to be reminded in the present day. The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not two pieces of timber placed at any angle.
P.S. There were four others crucified with Jesus not two!
Wait’ll the next big hurricane...
I’ve lived through a few and you know what? .. The land is still there and That is where the money is.
Roman historical sources of crucifixions, Persian documentation, archeological evidence, Roman graffito, sigh, years and years of study of Archeology of Rome and the ANE. Including 2 years as president of one of the largest AIA chapters in the country.
The primary sources you list are 4th Cent or later. The others I will have to check for context. J. Gardner Wilkinson - LOL well at least you aren’t using Budge, but Wilkinson is close. Dr. Schliemann isn’t used much anymore.
I’m not doing your homework for you but start with John RW Stott for sources, and do some real academic research. Search AJA for crucifixion and you will see some REAL evidence.
sources for 4 crucified not two? Your response really sounds like JW, pseudo-archeology junk.
I think don’t a Bible student would use archeology to prove something in the Bible. The innerant Word of God needs no outside proof. “Cross” used in the N.T. ‘stauro’ means a stake or stick. You can’t explain that away. Regardless what trinketts or sketches one may find, a Bible student will take the trust in the Bible, always trying to get back to the original inspired Word of God.
Here is why I believe the horrible weapon of torture and death used on our Lord was a pole.
Mat. 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day), besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
A grown man stretched out on a ‘traditional’ cross when his legs are broken the weight being tranfered to the hands/palms/wrist would just tear out if not redistributed with a rope or belt but not quickening death. But a man being crucified as reported in the Bible (hands stretched tight above his head, when you break his legs breathing would be reduced eponentially and suffocation would come quickly. With your traditional weapon that record in the Scriptures makes now sense, with the true weapon, a stake or stick, makes perfect sense. More importantly brother, he gave up his life before his legs could be broken which would have been contrary to prophesy, and we know he always did God’s will and lived a sinless life so we could receive everlasting life in paradise with him and other like us. God bless you.
No contradiction. I didn’t claim that I was “never” a witness, I just said that I wasn’t a current JW, which is the truth. I’m not a current JW. To the strictest of all senses, I may have never been a JW since I never got baptized.
That should be “contravetial”. I was looking up on the price of a convertable car kit while typing that out.
I think don’t a Bible student would use archeology to prove something in the Bible
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You are kidding right? Then you don’t think. Period.
Have you ever actually done any serious, academic biblical studies?
Granted, it depends upon your methodology, if you focus on textual criticism, linguistics, historical, or biblical archaeology, but ALL, ALL Bible Scholars (and I know several personally as I have been in the field for many years) use archaeology in their studies. Faithful or not, all serious Bible scholars look at archeological evidence in relation to their topic.
As to your objects, your concusions are erroneous and typical of they pseudo-intellectual arguments used by the JW’s.
Nails at the wrist with foot support (either front or side - they did both) would NOT tear, nor break legs and there is also some documentary evidence that ropes were often used to help support the arms on the cross piece.
Get back to me when you actually want to approach this as a faithful (believing) academic.
An older book that is still referenced on this is “A doctor at Calvary”
The Bible speaks of real events in real places. It is not unreasonable to examine archeological evidences to both confirm as well as understand the context of the time. The bible is not like greek mythology or the book of mormon describing mythological, non existant persons, peoples and places.
Gee, you’re are hard to talk to. Why such arrogance with anger? I said “prove something in the Bible”, you said,”use archeolgy in their studies” there is a difference.
You still haven’t attempted to explain “stauros” (Gk.)
This discusion got started when someone made, in my opinion a very denigrating remark about Jesus Christ. I know very little about Jehovah Witness’s doctrine. I do know we are allowed to hold our own ‘opinion’ what we think the Bible says. Now, we could be dead wrong in that opinion and suffer the consequences (not get the rewards of correct believing) but we still have that right. Major Christians demoninations are riddled with false teaching, traditions not Bible based, or down right errors. I am not anything other than a beliver in Jesus Christ and I do my best to live up to that high standard of conduct. But, at best, I’m a saved sinner, waiting for his return. JW’s have the same right to be wrong as me or you. I think the Roman Church do as much harm as good. But if Christ is preached then they are at least they doing something right. Your tone and condescension is a bit off-putting to say the least. How many people have you lead to the new birth lately? I don’t find you style of talking to people in the N.T. well, a few of note, wore babbles on their foreheads. Oh well, you probably believe in the trinity, too. Bye,bye.
Only if you discount that the termonlogy is in the classical greek sense - but we are talking Koine Greek here. The fact is that the word has a broader sense and use. Here archaeology provides detail and depth on this point.
The 1968 discovery of the remains of an individual who was cruxified were found. The wear of the nail on the bone made it clear the orientation of the arm - it was subhorizontal. As discribed by N. Haas of the Department of Anatomy at Hebrew University in Israel Exploration Journal, 1970 he states:
"The whole of our interpretation concerning the position of the body on the cross may be described briefly as follows: The feet were joined almost parallel, both transfixed by the same nail at the heels, with the legs adjacent; the knees were doubled, the right one overlapping the left; the trunk was contorted; the upper limbs were stretched out, each stabbed by a nail in the forearm."
Further historical/archaeological evidence comes from the romans themselves. Roman uses stipes (vertical beam) and patibulum (crossbeam) for their cruxifictions. Criminals commonly carried the crossbeam to their execution. Since there is no mention of a hole being dug for Christ, it is probable that he carried the crossbeam.
As I said, archaeological studies clarify the actual practices used at the time and broaden the understanding of the koine greek termonlogy.
Since you believe the "innerant Word of God" needs no outside proof -
John 20:25 - "The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."
They used two nails, not one as would be the case (and is commonly depicted by JW) if Jesus was nailed to a stake. Jesus was crucified upon a cross not a stake as the Bible indicates.
Jesus I know, Paul I know , but who the hell are you?
Excerpted: “A later reexamination of the right calcaneum (heel bone) revealed that the two heels had not been nailed together, but nailed separately to either side of the upright post of the cross, so that he straddled it (Zias and Sekeles 1985:22–24). Also later challenged was Haas’s assertion that a nail had pierced the distal ends of the radius and ulna of the forearm. The scratches in the wrist area were determined to be non-traumatic and, therefore, not evidence of crucifixion (Zias and Sekeles 1985:24). Haas had also claimed that there was evidence that the legs of the victim had been broken (Haas 1970:57), but this was apparently based on what is described as “inconclusive evidence” (Zias and Sekeles 1985:24–25).
Come on guys, I have the right to believe wrongly and suffer the consequences for it. Now please spend your vast knowledge of the Bible getting people born again and kicking the Adversary’s butt out of government and out of our society. Go heal the sick, raise the dead, set the captive free. Convert the mooselimbs.
Your brother in Christ.
were you to continue the article you would have found -
1. still provides evidence of 1st century crucifixion
2. Still utilizes a cross piece - as in a traditional cross - even IF the wrist bones do not show evidence of wear (which is still debated - as the article states).
So spare the sarcasm for someone who might care.
I have the right to believe wrongly and suffer the consequences for it
- - - - - -
Arrogance? It isn’t arrogance if you can do it, and my degrees in Biblical studies & History state it isn’t arrogance, but rather basic knowlege, but rather than respond academically you resort to ad hominum attacks to prove a invalid point. LOL.
you fail to understand the differences between Attic and Koine greek or idiomatic usage.
stauros, while literally means ‘upright stake’, is also used in reference to the vertical part of a crucifix (which was an upright stake or beam. Idiomatically and in common usage it refers to either an upright stake (also for impaling) or a two piece stake (with a cross beam).
How many years of Greek have you had? Just wondering.
you are correct that you, and you are not my brother in Christ. Anyone who does not believe in the trinity (regarding your snide comment earlier), is a heretic. Jesus who is NOT God CANNOT SAVE.
False faith is a false Christ will not lead to salvation and YOU have shown nothing that says we believe in the same Christ.
Go peddle your false Christ elsewhere.
You are not worth my time.
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