The secrets surrounding the Holy Shroud

Rome Reports ^ | April 3, 2010

[NYer]

April 3, 2010. Turin will play host to the Holy Shroud between April 10th and May 23rd. More than one million people have made reservations to visit. More than 4 thousand volunteers are helping with artistic exhibitions, movies and informative panels.

The origin and the authenticity of the Holy Shroud are still big mysteries. Mysteries that scientists, physicist, biologists and archaeologists have still not been able to solve.

Andrea Tornielli
Author, ‘Sindone, inchiesta sul mistero’
“Science will continue to study the Holy Shroud because there’s new technology like high-definition photography that can perhaps help reveal new information.”

Emanuela Marinelli
Holy Shroud Expert
“If the DNA of the blood on the Holy Shroud is the same as the one found on the cloth in Oviedo, that would be a big revelation. That’s why I believe we need to keep investigating.”

But, there are some facts that point to the authenticity of the Holy Shroud. For example, this type of cloth was used by wealthy people because their bodies were laid to rest in mass graves. According to the Gospel, Joseph of Arimathea, a rich man, is the person who gave Jesus’ body a proper burial.

Traces of aloe, myrrh and 70 types of pollen have also been found on the linen. Three-quarters of these plants grow exclusively in the Middle East near Jerusalem.

According to the drops of blood, the contact between the body and the cloth lasted for 36 hours, the amount of time according to the Gospel between Jesus’ death and resurrection.

That’s why perhaps the most significant aspect of the linen is that it helps explains Jesus’ crucifixion.

Andrea Tornielli
Author, ‘Sindone, inchiesta sul mistero’
“The large amount of bilirubin in blood indicates that he had a violent death, that he sweated blood just as it’s described in the Gospels, and that his suffering is indescribable.”

Emanuela Marinelli
Holy Shroud Expert
“According to the Holy Shroud, he suffered 120  lashes with the call flagrum, which had three strings, and each one had two pieces of sharpened bone, which tore skin. Therefore, every blow would cause six injuries. 120 lashes equals 720 wounds.”

Jesus had a wooden plank attached from his hand to his foot, as he walked to the place he was crucified.  The remains of dirt found on the cloth near his nose and his knees would be confirm that he fell to the ground several times.

According to scientists it’s very likely he died from a heart attack. That’s why some say he shouted on the cross before he died and water and blood flowed out after a soldier pierced his side with a spear. Details supported by evidence taken from the Shroud.

Authentic or not, the shroud helps to better understand the last moments of Jesus' life and that’s why Pope Benedict XVI will visit the shroud May 2nd.

[American Constitutionalist]

Jerome Corsi said on Coast to Coast AM last night ( in case you were listening ) was, that, the main piece of the shroud, ( the one we see, the 16 foot piece was the first one that went over his body ) folded at the head and went behind him and in front of him.
The head cloth and the strips were to keep the main piece or shroud in place so it won't come off... so, yes, there was the main piece that folded over his head and down his body, and the one that was placed over his head, and the strips of cloths with spices in it went over that.
The shroud could have been placed on him by the Romans , and then Jesus's family could have came later and took his body and placed the rest of the cloth on him...
Another thing Jerome Corsi said was, either the material, or the threads had some chemicals, resins, or pollen on it as similar as to the Dead Sea Scrolls, what that means, is ? it came from the same area, or place ( Israel ) as the Dead Sea Scrolls.
However, no matter what evidence you show people, some people already made up their minds that they are not going to believe...
As for me ? I believe it is the real deal, and it is the cloth that was placed over Jesus Christ.

[American Constitutionalist]

" Authentic fraud "

Prove it yourself, not just speculations, go there with your own scientific know how and prove it.
No, the main motive those who want to debunk the shroud is mostly those who want to debunk Christianity.
I am not saying the shroud proves the bible one bit, but, it also backs up it's claims in physical evidence.

[American Constitutionalist]

It's no point to argue with these debunkers, most debunkers debunk other things in relation to the bible and Christianity.
How about the new archaeological evidence recently that proves the bible right ? yes, there was a thread here on FR a few weeks ago, guess what ? there were debunkers trying to make the archaeological claims as false.
No matter how much scientific evidence you have, or physical evidence, there are always going to be those who want to prove the bible wrong.
There are those who have the audacity to claim that King David was just a myth, just like there are those who want to say that the shroud is a myth and a fraud.

[circlecity]

If God is against graven images and idols, why would he give us one?

[donmeaker]

Actually, Christianity debunks itself. Then you can start on the Mormons...

I recommend Mark Twain’s “Innocents Abroad”, as better in moral tone than the Bible.

Even if it was a shroud from the correct age, which it is not, as shown by the Carbon 14 tests, and even if it had blood from a mediteranean person on it, rather than red ochre and vermillion, still, Pontius Pilate had some 15,000 men cruxified, and even according to the Bible, at least 3 on that very day. Any plans to disambiguate that one from the 14,999 other men?

Didn’t think so.

[Swordmaker]

What's the protocol for taking the Shroud out of it's box?

When was the last time it was taken out for scientific study?

What percentage of time does it spend in the lab?

The last known time it was studied in toto was in 2002. There is no official scientific protocol for removal... there is probably a religious ritual for removal of it from its reliquary, but I would not know that. Percentage wise is unknowable. The 1978 team had it for five 24 hour days.

[Swordmaker]

i am going to get the DVD, someone was talking during parts of the program, do you recall the part with the drawing that showed the linen texture and the holes and i believe that drawing dated fairly far back. When the eyes opened on the 3d figure, i really felt a chill.

That was referring to the 12th Century Hungarian Prayer Codex... a couple of woodcuts in the Codex show the preparation of Jesus for burial and depict his removal from the cross and show Him being placed on a shroud... with a herring bone weave, with the distinctive "poker hole" burns that predate all the other burn marks.

[Swordmaker]

If God is against graven images and idols, why would he give us one?

Why did God order the making of the Ark of the Covenant with Winged Seraphim? Or the staff with the serpent on it for the healing of the people???

God said that WE may not make unto ourselves a graven image... he did not so limit himself. . . or us, if he told us to do it.

[circlecity]

"Why did God order the making of the Ark of the Covenant with Winged Seraphim? Or the staff with the serpent on it for the healing of the people???"

Neither of those are an image of God.

[Desdemona]

Um, the Carbon 14 dating from 1988 was debunked by the very people who ran the tests. The piece of cloth cut to do the tests was taken from a section that was rewoven by very well-meaning nuns and it skewed the results. And the blood on the Shroud is AB- - same as the Crown of Thorns which is in Paris and the head cloth which is in Spain.

It's also been proven that there is no paint on the Shroud. Minor, little details that get in the way.

[Swordmaker]

Even if it was a shroud from the correct age, which it is not, as shown by the Carbon 14 tests, and even if it had blood from a mediteranean person on it, rather than red ochre and vermillion, still, Pontius Pilate had some 15,000 men cruxified, and even according to the Bible, at least 3 on that very day. Any plans to disambiguate that one from the 14,999 other men?

It is absolutely amazing to me how someone can ignore years of peer-reviewed science, sometimes 30 years of it, to repeat non-peer-reviewed claims again and again... When something has been falsified, you discard the old, falsified data, and move on.

The Carbon 14 tests done in 1988 have been invalidated, falsified, by three different scientists using three different disciplines as reported in three different articles published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. What all three of these scientists have demonstrated, beyond reasonable doubt is that the sample tested is not identical with the main body of the Shroud... which is made entirely of pure Flax derived Linen, while the sample that was tested, was made of a melange of original linen PLUS a large percentage—between 40% and 60%—of added EUROPEAN COTTON, dyed and sized to match the original material. If the sample that was tested was NOT representative of the thing intended to be tested... and even the C14 lab in Arizona commented about the presence of cotton in their samples... then it cannot be generalized to date the overall object.

In fact, prior to this proof, chemical statisticians, in the 1990s started questioning the 1988 C-14 data itself... when they were reviewing the data and discovered that the Chi Squared results were impermissibly too large for the data to have come from a population of a sample that was homogenous... i.e. sub-samples that were cut from the same sample. Each piece was TOO dissimilar to have been cut from the same piece... but yet they were. The statisticians conclusion was that something was wrong, seriously wrong, with the sample. In fact, the Arizona C14 lab, cut its two pieces taken from the extreme ends of the main sample cut from the Shroud into a total of eight pieces and made eight tests. Those eight tests were so far out of their range of confidence, that they Massaged their data to make it look like they did only FOUR tests... averaging them. And THEN the Oxford controlling lab, further massaged the data to make it fit the data from the other two labs, because even THEN the out lying data was still outside the range of confidence of the dates of the extremes of the others... but they IGNORED these red flags... because they SO wanted to believe what the data they were getting. They went ahead and published the massaged data. Now we have this mess.

Because the people who took the sample, ignored the well thought out protocols prepared by the STURP people, and took their sample from the worst possible location on the Shroud, one that the STURP people had identified as suspect because it fluoresced under ultraviolet light as being chemically and physically different than the main body of the Shroud and should be avoided, the sample that was tested WAS CONTAMINATED by extraneous unknown provenance materials. And depending on how far from the edge, the amount of contamination varied from 40% to 60% which accounted for the discrepancies in the dates the various labs reported in what was supposed to be a homogenous sample... but wasn't. In this case the contamination was a patch skillfully and invisible to the naked eye, but not to micro-photography, added to the Shroud in the 16th Century. What the labs dated in 1988 was a mixture of 16th century cotton, and original Shroud Linen material... however old that may be... and came up with an average date of the mixed materials. Worthless. Garbage Sample in, Garbage data out.

As to your assertion that the blood on the Shroud is Vermillion and Red Ochre, that is a completely un-peer-reviewed claim by Walter C. McCrone, which has also been falsified multiple times by EVERY scientist who has examined the Shroud since McCrone's optical light Microscope studies of 1979-1980 where he claimed he saw paint... including several of McCrone's own employees, who he muzzled to keep quiet, when their conclusions did not match his. His work has not only been FALSIFIED numerous times, Scientists using the EXACT same samples that McCrone claimed showed paint under his microscope have failed to find the paint he claims he saw and therefor have failed to duplicate or verify his work, one of the prime requirements of good science. On the other hand, multiple definitive tests, both chemical and physical, down to the electron microscopic level, including micro-Xray-spectrometry—where such elements as Iron and Mercury would have shown up like red flags—have shown there is no Vermillion (Mercuric Sulfide HgS) or Red Ochre (Iron Oxide Fe₃O₂) on the Shroud in sufficient quantities to be visible to the naked eye... and what is present is randomly scattered over the surface of the shroud, consistent with environmental contamination, and not statistically associated in any way with the image of the Shroud which McCrone claimed was Red Ochre Dust as well... except as expected in organic bound iron in blood derivatives, which I will get into in the following paragraph. Not only have scientists NOT found Red Ochre dust as the modality, as claimed by McCrone, for the image, we KNOW what that the image is composed of a very fine coating on the outermost fibers of the linen made up of a melanoidin sugar like caramel substance that results from the residue left on the Shroud threads from the startching and bleaching done in the preparation of the hanks of Linen, combined with the possible outgassing from the dead body of putracine and cadaverine. In other words, McCrone was again, FALSIFIED by modern peer-reviewed science. No Red Ochre dust, No Vermillion. No egg albumin fixative. NO PAINT!

World class specialists in blood and blood derivatives, Drs. John Heller and Alan Adler, concluded that is was actual blood material on the basis of physics-based and chemistry-based testing, specifically the following: detection of higher-than-elsewhere levels of iron in "blood" areas via X-ray fluorescence, indicative spectra obtained by micro-spectrophotometry, generation with chemicals and ultraviolet light characteristic porphyrin fluorescence, positive tests for hemochromagen using hydrazine, positive tests for cyanmethemoglobin using a neutralized cyanide solution, positive tests for the bile pigment bilirubin, positive tests for protein, and use of proteolytic enzymes on 'blood' material, leaving no residues. Also tests for reflection spectra indicative of bilirubins and blood's presence, chemical detection of the specific protein albumin, the presence of serum halos around various 'blood' marks when viewed under ultraviolet light, immunological determination that the 'blood' is of primate origin. There work was peer-reviewed and confirmed by the top expert in the world on Haemoglobin and its derivatives, Dr. Bruce Cameron, whose double doctorates are specialized in those fields and who is the person who one goes to for a definitive answer on ancient blood and its derivatives... and who is NOT a Shroud devotee. Incidentally, should you want to claim that these scientists are Christians wanting to believe the Shroud is genuine, Heller and Adler are both Jewish.

As to dis-ambiguating that one crucified man from the thousands of others who were crucified, one need look at the specific conditions of one specific crucifixion. How many of the others were scourged, crowned with a crown of thorns (a very specific thing to ridicule the claim of being King of the Jews), did not suffer crucifragium (the breaking of the lower legs to hasten death), were instead speared in the side, and were actually buried with a semblance of a proper procedure instead of either being left to be eaten by animals or tossed into a common grave or left to hang on their crosses? Those specific things cuts down on the possibilities by quite a bit... now add in the other physical findings on the Shroud that limit the geographic range the Shroud could have come from such as the limestone dust from a limestone (Travertine Aragonite) that only exists to the east of Jerusalem, Pollen from plants that went extinct before 800 AD and only grew in a small area in Palestine, and you limit the possibilities even more. Can science and scholarship ever say absolutely that the Shroud of Turin covered the body of the man Jesus of Nazareth? No, they cannot. All they can do is to further refine the possibilities and probablilties.

[Swordmaker]

Neither of those are an image of God.

They are graven images... the prohibition was not about an image of God...

[American Constitutionalist]

How many of those 14,999 had a crown of thorns on their heads ? , the shroud shows that, that person had some sort of cap on his head made out of ( Euphorbia millii ) i.e. crown of thorns plant... how many other people who were crucified had that on their heads ? ... I say, not many, only one that we know of.. :



I don't understand the logic or motive of those who want to debunk Christianity, or the shroud, or any new acrhilogial evidence that supports the bible, it's as if they are hell bent on disproving the bible, therefore trying to disprove the existence of GOD.
You don't see many Christians going on Atheist web sights trying to disprove Atheism ? how come Atheist are driven like a magnet to Christian boards, or web sights to give their failed logic on the subject of the bible ?

I have had a few personal things that have happened in my life to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that GOD IS REAL and that he really exist.
The reason why Atheist don't see GOD is because they don't want to see GOD or believe..... their own self worship of their own lives and body is a god to them.. they deny that there is no other god except themselves.
There is a word for that, it's called Humanism.

[American Constitutionalist]

If you break one law ( the Mosaic Law ) you are guilty of breaking ALL the law.
If you live by the law, you shall obey all the law, and if you even break just one jot or tittle of the law, your guilty of breaking all the law.
No matter how much Israel tried to keep the law ( there was a reason why the high priest had to bring a spotless lamb every year for all of the nation's sins, until the next year ) ....
Don't try to pull that trick on me, I see where you are trying to go with this..
Jesus Christ fulfilled ALL, that means ALL the law, and God's holy and righteous standards, for NO ONE could, nor can anyone can ever keep all of GOD's law, so GOD had to send Jesus Christ to fulfill it.
Why is it ? the Atheist, or the GODLESS try to pull this trick on Christians and asked them that questions ? ohh yeah, to try to debunk what Christians say....
Without the law, there is no actknowlegement of sin, there is no knowledge of sin.
The law could never, nor can never make a man right in God's eyes.
Only the Sacrifice and the blood of Jesus Christ can make a man right in God's eyes ( NOT GUILTY ! ).

[circlecity]

I have no idea what your incoherant rant was about. No one in this debate is even hinting about works salvation or soteriology at all. But the moral law still serves as the ideal and if one is saved they have a new born desire to keep it - out of gratitude not obligation. Salavation does not give one license to sin, that’s antinomianism.

[donmeaker]

I don’t need to disprove G-d. He don’t call, He don’t write. Till He does G-d is a non-issue.

That includes non-Judeao-Christian G-ds too. No incoming messages recently from Isis, Set, Horus, Diana, Athena, etc.

Now if you transmute G-d into psycological states, then there is no need for such messages, but then you are admitting that having a single G-d is like having a single psycological state: insane.

[donmeaker]

Actually, you do get Xians going to Atheist web sites. you also get Xians going to Pagan websites to “preach and teach”.

Jehovahs witnesses are rather famous for going round to the heathen’s houses. Surely you have seen the Mormon’s missionaries with their white shirts and bicycles?

[donmeaker]

Iron is included in Red Ocre. detecting iron is not a surprise.

[donmeaker]

Let us start by looking at the 120 lashes. That disagrees with the Bible which asserts only 39 or 40 were given.

As for how many had a crown of thorns? We don’t know. All of them? probably not, None of them? Probably not. If I was going to make a fake, I would put one on it every time. It I was going to make a fake, I would start with a cadaver, do things to it, and then drape it, but that wouldn’t give me much of an image...So then I would add to the image with available pigments: red ocre and vermillion.

[Swordmaker]

Iron is included in Red Ocre. detecting iron is not a surprise.

Did I say it was??? I said it does not rise to sufficient quantities to be visible as a pigment... and it is NOT present in sufficient quantities in the image areas as McCrone claimed in to be the image modality. We know what the image is composed of... and it is NOT Red Ochre's Iron Oxide... nor is it Vermillion. These would have stood out like neon signs on the Xray spectrometry... they simply are not there in the quantities needed to be a pigment. The Iron Oxide in the blood stain areas is bound in organic molecules associated with blood derivatives... and has to solubalized before it can be properly identified. McCrone, being a Microscopist, did not know how to solubalize old blood and failed to get it into solution to properly test it. Heller, Adler, and Cameron do know how... and succeeded in properly applying the tests which I listed for you.,. all of which were positive for blood... and NOT merely for iron oxide. Accept the peer-reviewed science, donmeaker, it's blood.