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Judas, Alive and Well
Catholic Exchange ^ | March 29, 2010 | Thomas Colyandro, MA, MDiv

Posted on 03/29/2010 10:06:18 AM PDT by NYer

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Thomas Colyandro is the author of The Judas Syndrome: Seven Ancient Heresies Return to Betray Christ Anew, available now from Saint Benedict Press (www.saintbenedictpress.com).  He holds master's degrees in theology and divinity from the University of St. Thomas and served that university, as well as the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston, in multiple capacities.
1 posted on 03/29/2010 10:06:18 AM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; markomalley; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 03/29/2010 10:06:41 AM PDT by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: NYer

The attacks on the Pope and the passing of this health care monstrosity at this time of the year are no coincidence as the forces of darkness are powerfully at work. We are at the calm before the storm and will see with our own eyes God’s justice on the wicked.


3 posted on 03/29/2010 10:12:54 AM PDT by DarthVader (Liberalism is the politics of EVIL whose time of judgment has come. Judgment Day: Nov 2, 2010)
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To: NYer
I don’t know. do you really need images to pray to God? Are they required, or optional? What about “graven images”?
4 posted on 03/29/2010 10:13:12 AM PDT by chesley (Lib arguments are neither factual, logical, rational, nor reasonable. They are, however, creative.)
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To: NYer

“ravings of hermitic lunatics” That’s a picture!


5 posted on 03/29/2010 10:13:46 AM PDT by glide625 (50+% of American Voters Elected Obama: Never Forget; Never Forgive.)
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To: NYer
Iconoclasm (denying the use of images of God in prayer)

Uhhhh.....pretty sure the bible tells us not to do that.

6 posted on 03/29/2010 10:18:48 AM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: chesley
I don’t know. do you really need images to pray to God? Are they required, or optional? What about “graven images”?

No ... we don't need images but icons and statues are like photos of loved ones that we carry in our wallet or turn into wallpaper on our computer. In the Bible, there are many many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20). Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, "On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

For many of us Catholics, to look upon Christ crucified is a reminder of the sins we committed and for which He shed every drop of His blood. It is humbling ... to say the least.

7 posted on 03/29/2010 10:40:35 AM PDT by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: NYer

Thanks for your reply. it was very informative to me. God bless.


8 posted on 03/29/2010 11:08:55 AM PDT by chesley (Lib arguments are neither factual, logical, rational, nor reasonable. They are, however, creative.)
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To: NYer

I keep a picture of the Sacred Heart of Jesus by my front door so that, when I open the door, it is one of the first things that callers see. The effect it has had on some has been very interesting.


9 posted on 03/29/2010 11:10:46 AM PDT by cajuncow
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To: NYer
The "statues" of the cherubim were kept in the Holy of Holies and only seen by the ONE High Priest on ONE day per year!

I'm not arguing the use or history of icons, I really am not equipped to do so at this time, but I am merely pointing out the context of the use of the two cherubim.

10 posted on 03/29/2010 11:26:59 AM PDT by haywoodwebb (ISLAM = DEATH! . . . . Black & Humble . . .)
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To: cajuncow
I keep a picture of the Sacred Heart of Jesus by my front door so that, when I open the door, it is one of the first things that callers see. The effect it has had on some has been very interesting.

I will bless the homes in which the image of My Sacred Heart shall be exposed and honored.

Twelve Promises of the Sacred Heart

Like you, I also keep a picture of the Sacred Heart of Jesus in my home. I am also consecrated to Him. Would love to be a fly on the wall near the Sacred Heart image in your home.

11 posted on 03/29/2010 1:47:25 PM PDT by NYer ("Where Peter is, there is the Church." - St. Ambrose of Milan)
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To: NYer
,No ... we don't need images but icons and statues are like photos of loved ones that we carry in our wallet or turn into wallpaper on our computer.

Except those statues or "holy pictures" are not the real image of anyone they are from the artists imagination.

So the question is if we look at an image of Jesus, when no one knows what he looked like.. is that in truth an idol..

The nation of Israel thought the golden calf was an image of God..but God did not think so

There are no pictures of the people that lived for most of Christianity's history..it is ,like prayer to the dead all made up

12 posted on 03/29/2010 3:58:17 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: NYer
Spy Wednesday (also Holy Wednesday of Holy Week)

Judas, Alive and Well

Spy Wednesday

13 posted on 03/29/2010 4:45:32 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: RnMomof7
So the question is if we look at an image of Jesus, when no one knows what he looked like.. is that in truth an idol..

An idol, by definition, is an image of a false god. If you think Jesus is a false god, then, yes, it's an idol.

The nation of Israel thought the golden calf was an image of God..but God did not think so

There's an excellent reason for that: God never came to earth and walked around incarnate in a calf's body.

However, there was an Egyptian deity called Apis which was depicted as a bull or a young bull (calf). Worshipping the golden calf was essentially giving one of the gods of Egypt credit for leading Israel out of bondage.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was and is true God and true man, God incarnate in human flesh?

14 posted on 03/29/2010 4:53:31 PM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed imposter")
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To: SkyPilot
Uhhhh.....pretty sure the bible tells us not to do that.

What about Numbers 21:8-9 where God commanded the Jewish people to make the brazen serprent. When they used it properly there was no problem, It was not until about 700 years later in the time of Hezikiah that they burned incense to it and treated it as a god. then it needed to be destroyed.

Statues are no more than reminders of people that have led lives of extraordinary faith in times of severe adversity and persevered. For most of our history very few people could read or write these statues, stations of the cross, paintings, and stained glass windows served to remind us of our history. Now we have the images of television then we used those images to tell the story to the next generation.

15 posted on 03/30/2010 2:02:09 AM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: verga
God has commanded his people to make a lot of things: arks, breastplates, walls, and several ornate objects of worship for use in the temple.

These never were, or are they now, to be used in worship to Him. Let's look again at those verses from Numbers:

4From Mount Hor they set out by the way to the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom. And the people became impatient on the way. 5And the people spoke against God and against Moses, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we loathe this worthless food." 6Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7And the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you. Pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people. 8And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." 9So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

Numbers 21: 4- 9

It seems to me that God specifically called for this serpent to be constructed for a specific event as a means of atonement, and to remind the people of their sin before God. Did God ever ask the people to worship or pray to this piece of bronze?

No.

What the author specifically said:

Iconoclasm (denying the use of images of God in prayer)

Here is what God said in Exodus 20: 2- 4

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Where in scripture, and when, did God ever condone, command, or say anything about approving the use of images of God in prayer?

Well, He didn't.

In fact, He condemns it.

There is a profound difference between marveling at the paintings and sculpture that reflects the glory of God, and in "using" them in prayer.

God repeatedly warns about idols. They are the realm of pagans and evil, and are not to be used:

Eze 8:12 (NIV) He said to me, "Son of man, have you seen what the elders of the house of Israel are doing in the darkness, each at the shrine of his own idol?"

2 Pet 2:18 (NIV) For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error.

1 Cor 12:1-2 (NIV) ...I do not wish you to be ignorant... somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to dumb idols.

Isa 41:29 (NIV) "See, they are all false! Their deeds amount to nothing; their images are but wind and confusion."

Jer 2:5 (NIV) This is what the Lord says: "What fault did your fathers find in me, that they strayed so far from me? They followed worthless idols and became worthless themselves."

Ps 97:7 (NIV) All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols...

1 Sam 12:21 (NIV) Do not turn away after useless idols. They can do you no good, nor can they rescue you, because they are useless.

So, I stick by my original statement that the bible tells us not to do that.

16 posted on 03/30/2010 3:39:24 AM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: SkyPilot
idol - Idol Definition Dictionary.com i·dol   /ˈaɪdl/ Show Spelled[ahyd-l] Show IPA –noun 1.an image or other material object representing a deity to which religious worship is addressed. 2.Bible. a.an image of a deity other than God. b.the deity itself.

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

And Idol is an image of a false god, since we are not worshiping them and since we don't think that they are any kind of god, false or otherwise, the point is moot.

I am certain that you recall that God specifically directed the Israelites to include images of birds, fruit, and Angels in the construction of the temple and the Ark of the Covenant.

17 posted on 03/30/2010 6:31:01 AM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: Campion
An idol, by definition, is an image of a false god. If you think Jesus is a false god, then, yes, it's an idol.

And if you bow before a picture or statue that is not a true image of Christ as if it was Christ that is a false Christ.

..RN said ...The nation of Israel thought the golden calf was an image of God..but God did not think so

There's an excellent reason for that: God never came to earth and walked around incarnate in a calf's body.

So then any body in an image could be Christ because he had a human body? No one sees God and lives, they made an image they believed was an image of God.. In their hearts they believed they were honoring their God.. just as catholics do every time they honor an icon that is not really a picture of Christ as if it were..

I am well aware of the history of Egyptian idol worship.. but it us irrelevant in our discussion because it could have been any image..even an unknown man on a cross..

18 posted on 03/30/2010 7:56:36 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: verga; SkyPilot
What about Numbers 21:8-9 where God commanded the Jewish people to make the brazen serprent. When they used it properly there was no problem, It was not until about 700 years later in the time of Hezikiah that they burned incense to it and treated it as a god. then it needed to be destroyed.

I think that this is a perfect example of what sinful man can do ..

The serpent was an ACTUAL type of Christ. It symbolism looking to Christ in faith to be saved. Yet sinful man made the type of Christ an idol.. does that sound familiar?

19 posted on 03/30/2010 8:02:23 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: NYer
Holy Week
 
Then Judas, his betrayer, said in reply,
“Surely it is not I, Rabbi?”
He answered, “You have said so.”

20 posted on 03/30/2010 9:58:34 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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