You CAN say both!
(When you're MORMON...)
Posted on 03/23/2010 10:58:16 AM PDT by delacoert
An acquaintance of a noted Greek philosopher once lamented, "They deride thee, O Diogenes!" Unperturbed, the philosopher replied, "But I am not derided." Diogenes, who lived from 410-320 B.C., understood that truth, if it is truth, can never be truly harmed by mockery, ridicule or derision .... nor can those who promote it. Falsehood, on the other hand, will easily wither under intense and finely focused disparagement. Thus, ridicule and mockery have long been employed as legitimate devices for distinguishing fact from fallacy.
There is a fine line, however, between responsible ridicule and malicious mockery, and what begins as an honorable effort to separate truth from falsehood can quickly deteriorate into vicious villainy. Thus, there is indeed a fine art to practicing what might be termed godly mockery. Since so few people have mastered this art, most critics suggest this device should not be utilized at all. Some even believe it sinful to employ it. That is a case of casting out the baby with the bath water, however. There is no need to be so radical, if one is simply willing to be responsible.
A scalpel in the hands of a surgeon may result in healing for the one upon whom he uses this blade. In the hands of a sadist that same instrument will inflict harm. It is not the device itself, but the mindset of the one who would employ it, that determines the nature of the outcome. The same with mockery. It can result in suffering or salvation depending upon the heart and mind of the mocker. Some young lads, for example, mocked Elisha and were torn up by two female bears (2 Kings 2:23-24), whereas Elijah mocked the false prophets of Baal (1 Kings 18:27) and won a great victory over them at Mount Carmel. The latter was skilled in the fine art of godly mockery, the former were not. The difference was one of life and death!
While it is certainly true that there are perversions and abuses of mockery, ridicule, sarcasm and other legitimate biblical devices, and that these have on occasion been maliciously employed to stir up strife and generate schisms, it is equally true that these devices have been employed responsibly resulting in positive outcomes. Just because there are fake diamonds being manufactured and sold on the market as genuine jewels doesn't mean there are no real diamonds to be found. One must simply be discerning.
The Pharisees likely did not take kindly to the picture Jesus painted of them as blind men guiding blind men head over heels into a pit (Matthew 15:14), or as legalists straining out gnats while swallowing camels (Matthew 23:24), but this was subtle mockery with a spiritual message! Earlier in the latter chapter, Jesus mocked the rigid religious leaders with these words (aptly paraphrased in the Living Bible) -- "You would think these Jewish leaders and these Pharisees were Moses, the way they keep making up so many laws! And of course you should obey their every whim!" (Matthew 23:2-3). Mockery! But, godly mockery! Jesus sought to alert the people to the arrogance, as well as the dangers, of their leaders, portraying them as Moses-mimes and mandate-makers, men whose whims were expected to be obeyed as though their pronouncements had fallen from the lips of Moses himself. I believe the people got the message. So did the leaders, who wasted no time in seeking to destroy Him. The truth conveyed by the mockery was unmistakable, and it made a lasting impression upon impressionable minds.
As noted earlier, Elijah, one of only two men spared the pain of death, as he confronted the false prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel, "mocked them" (1 Kings 18:27). Through this device the people came to perceive the ridiculous plight of these men as they called out to their lifeless idols and cut themselves in frustration over the deafening silence of their deities. The godly mockery utilized by Elijah presented a profound message to those assembled to witness this duel of deities. What was the outcome? "And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, 'The Lord, He is God; the Lord, He is God" (1 Kings 18:39).
The prophet Ezekiel was instructed to prophesy to the people of Jerusalem that God would bring mockery against them for the purpose of shaming them. When sin has brought a people low, derision is one device which just might help facilitate their repentance. "You have brought your days to a close, and the end of your years has come. Therefore I will make you an object of scorn to the nations, and a mocking to all the lands. Those who are near and those who are far from you will mock you" (Ezekiel 22:4-5). The ultimate intent of godly mockery is to restore a people, not to ruin them! Responsible ridicule will bring reformation in its wake, although its barbs may initially be quite painful to bear.
In the first chapter of Proverbs we find Wisdom, personified, speaking rather bluntly to those who have rejected her. "Since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you" (Proverbs 1:24-26). As with Jerusalem during the time of the prophet Ezekiel, sometimes mockery becomes necessary as a means of bringing a people to an awareness of their spiritual plight. Godly mockery can indeed be used effectively to bring about godly responses from those who have succumbed to the folly of falsehood.
Some of God's people today are ill-informed and misguided. For a few, however, these characterizations are much too generous! A healthy dose of responsible ridicule and godly mockery might just be what the Great Physician requires for some professing His name! Some people respond well to subtleties .... others need a two-by-four between the eyes! That's where mockery, derision, sarcasm and ridicule come in. Used sparingly and responsibly by Spirit-led disciples it may well bring about spiritual healing and reformation.
Joshua Clark, from Washington state, in an article entitled "Satire and Sarcasm" (published on the Internet: July 18, 2002), made some insightful remarks that we would all do well to carefully and prayerfully consider:
"The antithesis between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman can at times be found in somewhat biting laughter and mockery. Often Christians get so caught up in restraining themselves from hating their enemies that they end up thinking it is entirely unrighteous to show disdain for them or to mock them. But we find that the Bible is not devoid of ridicule for the fools, and that Christ Himself spread it rather thick on the Pharisees.
"So we see then that sarcasm can be used righteously, but we must define the goal of sarcasm if we are to avoid the more invidious uses that hinder Christian truth. The goal of satire, as with all forms of rebuke, should be to save a person from error. Mockery should not be the form of rebuke in every situation. Yet sometimes mockery is appropriate. Once a person has spurned rebuke, and especially when other Christians are falling into this person's error, open ridicule may be an appropriate way to call them back to truth. There is no cookie-cutter approach to determining propriety in satire, but at times the shrewdest approach appears to be a public ridicule of a person's doctrine so that others are not led astray.
You CAN say both!
(When you're MORMON...)
Say!
Where's my TREAT?
Is that pretty much it?
In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.
1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.
I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.
Ezra Taft Benson
(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)
Ezekiel 23:19-21
19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. 21 So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.
bitttt
Naughty naughty trying to spin again!...
My post #107 "Well, finally you admit the truth."
Your post #113 "Those are reaganaut words..."
My #115 "Well, then sorry I gave you credit."
Your "silence"
My post #140 "So when you say those are reaganaut words.............Are you now saying that lds believe that salvation comes though works? Because you posted to me that salvation comes from grace and that works has nothing to do with it. So which is it grace or works? You have now said both in a matter of two days."
Your #147 "Naughty naughty trying to spin again!..."
Yours from Satire and Sarcasm
March 24, 2010 4:27:17 PM PDT · 59 of 162 restornu to T Minus Four
Where you end up is by how much light you have in your lamp!
So restornu what you wrote: Where you end up is by how much light you have in your lamp! Is works.
I will ask you again is Salvation by works or Grace? It cannot be both.
Rom. 1:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
wow, contending with yourself again!
Resty, what would or would not have happened if Jesus Christ WASN'T crucified by the "wicked"?
And as a point of order, not all of the prophets and apostles were crucified. Many died in other ways, some more terrible than crucifixion.
For your edification:
1 Matthew Suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia, killed by a sword wound
2 Mark Died in Alexandria, Egypt, after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.
3 Luke Was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.
4 John Faced martyrdom when he was boiled in huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos. The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.
5 Peter He was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross. According to church tradition it was because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die in the same way that Jesus Christ had died.
6 James Just The leader of the church in Jerusalem, was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller’s club. * This was the same pinnacle where Satan had taken Jesus during the Temptation.
7 James the Great Son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem . The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.
8 Bartholomew Also known as Nathaniel Was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed for our Lord in present day Turkey. Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia where he was flayed to death by a whip.
9 Andrew Was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras, Greece. After being whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words: ‘I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it.’ He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.
10 Thomas Was stabbed with a spear in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the sub-continent.
11 Jude Was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ.
12 Matthias The apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and then beheaded.
13 Paul Was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment, which allowed him to write his many epistles to the churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire. These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, form a large portion of the New Testament.
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: But he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Matthew 10:22
I had a grey and orange tabbies...
Thanks for sharing your cute furbabies they look so cozy!:)
Are you now saying that lds believe that salvation comes though works? Because you posted to me that salvation comes from grace and that works has nothing to do with it.
- - - - - - - - -
Whether or not salvation depends upon works or grace depends on if you are talking about ‘physical or universal salvation’ (resurrection) or ‘personal salvation’. Even with personal salvation, it depends upon if you are talking about all 3 levels of Heaven or the presence of God the Father and Exaltation.
And they can split hairs on it even further by redefining Grace.
You can get him to shake hands? LOL. What do they eat for treats
They are so cute and real love bugs. They are both rescue animals (Stanley nearly froze to death which is why we think he has the brain damage).
I would love a dog but mrreaganaut is highly allergic. I used to have a Harlequin great dane that was the sweetest thing.
There is no assurance of what Christians would call Salvation in the LDS.
If you ask an LDS if they KNOW they will make it to the Celestial kingdom the response is always something like “Well, I hope so”.
It is sad. Also there is this whole ‘the Holy Spirit will leave you if you are not worthy’ and ‘God’s love is conditional upon your obedience’, which adds to the insecurity.
I know if I sin, I grieve God but I also know that, as a believer, His Spirit will never leave me and He still loves me. That is a real comfort when I am struggling against my flesh and sinful nature.
Amen!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.