Posted on 03/15/2010 12:07:15 PM PDT by Colofornian
Edited on 03/23/2010 6:15:31 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]
bitttt
Godzilla: again - an amorphic 'church' denomination (but it has 'evangelical' in its name). Unless you can come up with some FACTS I am not inclined to believe your story. Can you supply those facts?
From Urroner's original post #862:
I have had several Evangelical friends tell me that they believe that it’s not grace alone, though they are in the minority.
This one friend invited me to attend a Wednesday meeting at her church. I don’t know what congregation she went to. This was several years ago and it was a small congregation only about 100 or so members that attended regularly. There were like 60 there that night. when most of the congregation found out that I was Mormon, they glared at me.
The preacher very specifically said that it wasn’t by grace alone, that we needed to have works to be saved. He even used the phrase that I know upsets a lot of “grace only” type people, and that was “cheap grace.” That is why I even remember the sermon. I never thought I would ever hear an evangelical preacher use the term “cheap grace.”
862 posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:51:38 PM by urroner
NOTES: Later posts by urroner bring out the facts about this visit to an Evangelical church where he was treated so "badly",
1. "One of the congregation is an acquaintance and he announced to all, in a rather disdainful way, that I was Mormon." Post #878
2. "The dude who “accused” me of being Mormon, say it something like “Lynn, you’re Mormon, aren’t you. Don’t deny it. What are you doing here?” The preacher apologized to me. Post #883
3. "But I was asked one time in one congregation by the preacher when I was introduced to him if I was Mormon. I said yes and asked him why and he said, “Oh, white shirt and tie.” “Guilty as charged.”
4. "It wasn’t my friend. It was somebody who lived a couple of blocks away and I had met him and his family several times at school functions. Like I said, he was an acquaintance. There are people like him everywhere." Post #887
5. "As an add on to my previous post, I have to several Evangelical congregations and this is the only time I was confronted like that. "
6. "the preacher, IIRC, was relatively new to the area and the previous preacher was a gung ho, hellfire and damnation type". -SNIP- "The new preacher was trying to change that attitude' Post #889-
SO...The original post tells a story of "when most of the congregation found out that I was Mormon, they glared at me."
Further comments show the fact that "One of the congregation is an acquaintance and he announced to all, in a rather disdainful way, that I was Mormon."
Urroner was in the "mormon" uniform of "white shirt and tie"...now it may be that the Evangelical congregation was wearing more casual wear, and someone in a tie would naturally stand out. People would naturally take notice of someone different...were they all "glaring"?
Urroner states: "Like I said, he was an acquaintance. There are people like him everywhere." Urroner additionally states The preacher apologized to me. Urroner then states "the previous preacher was a gung ho, hellfire and damnation type".......and "The new preacher was trying to change that attitude' "
The original story has morphed from "I was glared at because I was a mormon", condemning this unnamed Evangelical church (which was trying to change the tone of a previous hardline preacher). of being bigoted (and insinuating that all Evangelical churches are bigoted by association), to a story in which Urroner went to a strange church in the mormon uniform which brought attention to him, an acquaintance ("there are people like him everywhere") announced he was mormon, after which the preacher apologized to him and "this is the only time I was confronted like that. "
The facts as now provided by Urroner himself, hardly substantiate Urroner's original claim of being subjected to "bigotry" by an Evangelical church , which denomination he cannot name, congregation.
If we had not questioned him further about the original claim, it would have stood as a description of a "nasty unwelcoming Evangelical congregation "glaring" at a mormon visitor "because he was mormon."
Grace is grace. It’s not a matter of *cheap grace*.
It seems to me that depending completely on grace makes grace it’s best. It’s thinking that you have to add something to it that cheapens it (if possible), as if it’s not good enough on its own.
If you have to add works, it’s not grace, it’s wages for what you earned.
Yep, just as you documented GF, the story morphs with each telling. When my kids did that - I knew from the start they were lying.
Also note that it also morphed from a church requiring ‘works’ down to a couple of associates stating Christianity required ‘works’. Inability to keep a story straight is evidence of - just that - fiction, not fact.
I imagine SZonian is thinking of this passage from the King Follett Sermon:
All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Now,
is a mormon doctrine. I'm sure that we will see denials that Joseph Smith really meant that mormon "apostates" were sons of perdition, but those arguments are spectacularly unconvincing. Mormons I have known certainly accepted Smith at his word.
We first heard about the plan of salvation before we were born, in what the scriptures call our first estate (see Abraham 3:26). What occurred in this first estate is dimly understood, but we do know that we lived there as spirits, children of our Heavenly Father, and we made certain steps of advancement to prepare for the opportunity of housing our eternal spirits in earthly bodies. We also know that our Father held a great council to explain the purpose of earth life. We had the opportunity of accepting or rejecting the plan of salvation. It was not forced upon us. The essence of the plan was that man would have an opportunity of working out his own salvation on earth, with God’s help. A leader was selected to teach us how to follow the plan and to redeem us from sin and death. As the Lord explained to Moses, “Behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever” (Moses 4:2).
Salvation by Grace through faith Placemarker
Let me clarify, since I can see where my statement could be misconstrued.
As Joseph Smith states in the quote you provide, “He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him”.
Leaving Mormonism does not mean you will be a Son of Perdition. Not everyone who leaves Mormonism fights against the church after having the heavens opened unto them.
My belief is that to be a Son of Perdition, you have to willingly and knowingly fight against God.
Will you please explain more about this interesting statement?
......My belief is that to be a Son of Perdition, you have to willingly and knowingly fight against God.
AND....MY belief, and that of SZonian and probably still many other mormons and ex-mormons is that you can't just ignore the rest of Smith's statement regarding who is a son of perdition, which in part says; deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it; and from that time he begins to be an enemy. This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
This threat of "eternal darkness if you apostasize" WAS "believed" and held over the heads of mormons in the past to my personal knowledge. YOUR personal belief today notwithstanding.
This "editing" of mormon history, from this subject to the denial of the voluminous example of anti-Christian writings of earlier mormon leaders will not be simply accomplished, regardless of how many out of date lesson plans and CHI handbooks are shredded in accordance with instructions by mormon leaders.
I think the hierarchy discovered that banishment from your family worked well enough to keep you attached to the organization, and started distancing themselves from the concept of apostates being the sons of perdition.
The only person I am aware of that is a son of Perdition is Cain, the son of Adam, who killed his brother. He willfully fought against Christ after receiving a personal witness of Christ.
I doubt I’ll get one
Makes sense. But I wonder just how many current mormons think nasty, perverted apostates will be "sons of perdition"...I recall that we have been labeled as such by our resident "lecturer of moral values as dictated by Joseph Smith".
You can bet SHE is confident of it.
Urroner was in the “mormon” uniform of “white shirt and tie”...now it may be that the Evangelical congregation was wearing more casual wear, and someone in a tie would naturally stand out. People would naturally take notice of someone different...were they all “glaring”?
- - - - - - -
That is very likely. My congregation would stars at the PASTOR if he showed up in a white shirt and tie.
He wears a suit on Easter and Christmas (visitors) and makes Johnny Cash jokes b/c it is the only time he is ever in a suit on Sundays.
It seems to me that depending completely on grace makes grace it’s best. It’s thinking that you have to add something to it that cheapens it (if possible), as if it’s not good enough on its own.
- - - - - - - -
AMEN!
Leaving Mormonism does not mean you will be a Son of Perdition. Not everyone who leaves Mormonism fights against the church after having the heavens opened unto them.
My belief is that to be a Son of Perdition, you have to willingly and knowingly fight against God.
- - - - - - - - - -
I don’t fight against God, but I DO fight against the Mormon Church.
Does that make me/us a son/daughter of ‘perdition’ according to you?
Say!!
I had a vision about this very thing just last week!
A year ago I saw something that was close to what you are talking about.
When I was 10, I was visited by 2 or 3 fairies that told me the most WONDERFUL things!
For my 21st birthday, my buds got me drunk and I was awakened later by a couple of dudes shining bright lights on me...
If you don't believe me, it's because you are wanting to sin; BIG time!
Again; you post your BELIEF.
DO you or DO YOU NOT, agree with what the past Founder and Leaders of MORMONism have stated on the subject?
If you don’t get one, ping me, I will answer from an LDS point of view.
Right now, I’m on my way out the door and also I want to see if/how the LDS answer that
And if it isn't; it OUGHTA be!)
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