Why Does Glenn Beck Hate Jesus?

Time.com ^ | March 14, 2010 | Amy Sullivan

[Colofornian]

When Glenn Beck told listeners of his radio show on March 2 that they should "run as fast as you can" from any church that preached "social or economic justice" because those were code words for Communism and Nazism, he probably thought he was tweaking a few crunchy religious liberals who didn't listen to the show anyway. Instead he managed to outrage Christians in most mainline Protestant denominations, African-American congregations, Hispanic churches, and Catholics...

[urroner]

No, I don’t consider you a son/daughter of Perdition. It’s not about just actively campaigning against the Church. I seriously doubt if either of you would qualify of being one.

To become a son of Perdition, several things have to happen before hand. The short of it all is:

1. You have to have personally seen Christ and feel his embrace. This way, you know longer have faith, but now you a sure knowledge of Christ and God the Father.

2. You then rebel against this knowledge and purposefully fight against Christ.

I like that way someone else described it:
“Joseph Smith described it like staring into the sun and proclaiming that it doesn’t exist. It’s not a designation for those who stop believing or separate themselves from the church; it would be like if a prophet who had a clear knowledge of Christ denied Him, not the church or something else, but Christ. It’s not accumulated by sins either.”

If I haven’t received that undeniable knowledge of the existence of Christ, then I can not become a son of perdition.

As far as where any of us end up going in the next life, that is not up to me. I would love to see everybody in the CK, but that is not my decision.

I suffer from depression, lucky for me it has run in my family for many generations. I have learnt not to simply judge people whether they are righteous or evil by what they do, because righteous and evil implies intent and I can’t get into other people’s head and know what their intents are.

I also am blessed with ADHD and the people out at work can not begin, sometimes, to fathom why I do certain things. To me, it makes great sense and to them, it makes very little sense. Occasionally, my nonsense, in the long run, turns out to wonderful insight that the others couldn’t see.

Years ago, when I was a lot younger, I was excommunicated because I willfully rebelled against the Lord. It took me a long time, almost five years to get back in. When I was exed, my Stake President took me aside and told me that God loved me immensely and that He had his angels of mercy watching out over me. He said that just because I was exed, that that didn’t mean I was going to Hell. He said that that judgment is left up to Christ. Christ knows our hearts and our minds, better then we even know them.

In times past, in the middle of a severe depression, and thank the Lord that I haven’t had that happen in a long time, I even did things that I didn’t want to do. One day, I walked around the house, screaming and yelling at my children and breaking things. The whole time this was happening, I was telling myself to stop, that this was absolutely wrong, but I couldn’t just stop. It went on for several minutes and finally I stopped and I just broke down and cried. I still don’t know why that that happened when it happened, but I asked my family to forgive me and for them to realize I’m not that person. I’m a big teddy bear.

If you had seen me at that time and only at that time, you would have thought I was crazy and needed to institutionalized and that I should never see my children again. But after getting the medication I needed and some serious counseling, I worked my way through my problems. From this experience, I learnt to not judge others if they are evil or righteous, or if they deserve to go to Hell or to Heaven. Like I said before, that is ultimately God’s decision and He quite often does things that make absolutely no sense to me.

The only person I am aware of that is a son of Perdition is Cain, the son of Adam, who killed his brother. He willfully fought against Christ after receiving a personal witness of Christ.

I also doubt that Judas is a son of Perdition. I doubt he was converted to Christ and so he couldn’t have received that personal witness.

Just before the Crucifixion, Christ told Peter, “... when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” From this verse, it seems to me that Peter hadn’t been truly converted to the Lord. He hadn’t received the personal knowledge of God and Christ. He had been with Christ for about three years and had seen many miracle, probably even did a few himself, but he didn’t have that more sure word of knowledge. I believe he received it after Christ appeared to him after the Resurrection.

Also, like in the quote, it not about fighting against the Mormon Church, it’s about fighting against Christ.

Some of the early apostles in the Mormon Church left the Church and fought against it. I doubt that they are even sons of perditions, because denying the Church is not equivalent to denying Christ. Committing all sorts of terrible sins doesn’t necessarily equate to denying Christ.

Denying Christ after receiving a “second witness” is a specific sin.

Sorry to be so long winded.

I just want you to know that I’m not trying to trip you up and show you that you are wrong. I just want each of us to better understand where each other is coming from. I just want to make sure that when we discuss our beliefs, that we are on the same page. We will disagree, but I’m not here to disagree and find holes in your arguments. Heaven knows there are plenty in mine, but I’m just trying to understand where you are coming from and what you are trying to tell me and why you are trying to tell me that.

Again, I apologize for being such a bloviating blowhard.

[Elsie]

He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him.

I know that MORMONs just LOVE the Book of James...

James 5:13-22

Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray.
Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise.
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up.
If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

[colorcountry]

If I haven’t received that undeniable knowledge of the existence of Christ, then I can not become a son of perdition.

Have you received undeniable knowledge of the existence of Christ?

I have.

I suppose I am eligible to be a son of perdition then, right?

[Elsie]

 

 I have never said leaving the LDS Church means a person is doomed to outer darkness for eternity.

 

Oh?

 

How about MORMON Leaders then?

Do you 'believe' what THEY have said?

 

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Second President Brigham Young once remarked,

"I know that Joseph Smith is a Prophet of God, that this is the Gospel of salvation, and if you do not believe it you will be damned, every one of you"

(Journal of Discourses 4:298, March 29, 1857).

 

 

On October 9, 1859, Young said,

"From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are -- I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent"

(Journal of Discourses 7:289).

 

 

 

 

[Elsie]

...posting directly from lds.org.

Facts...

BAH!

[urroner]

You’re right SZ, we Mormons don’t want to come outright and say that you are damned to Hell, that you’re going to rot with Lucifer and his ilk for the eternities.

Why don’t we come outright and say so? Could it be because we either don’t know and/or we don’t believe it.

BTW SZ, have you stopped beating your wife?

[Elsie]

 

It seems to me that you are demanding that I only use your definitions; that when I use the word X, that I mean what you mean when you say X.

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Johnny Depp says...

 

`Some people,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking away from her as usual, `have no more sense than a baby!'

Alice didn't know what to say to this: it wasn't at all like conversation, she thought, as he never said anything to her; in fact, his last remark was evidently addressed to a tree -- so she stood and softly repeated to herself:

`Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall:
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the King's horses and all the King's men
Couldn't put Humpty Dumpty in his place again.'

`That last line is much too long for the poetry,' she added, almost out loud, forgetting that Humpty Dumpty would hear her.

`Don't stand chattering to yourself like that,' Humpty Dumpty said, looking at her for the first time, `but tell me your name and your business.'

`My name is Alice, but --'

`It's a stupid name enough!' Humpty Dumpty interrupted impatiently. `What does it mean?'

`Must a name mean something?' Alice asked doubtfully.

`Of course it must,' Humpty Dumpty said with a short laugh: `my name means the shape I am -- and a good handsome shape it is, too. With a name like yours, you might be any shape, almost.'

`Why do you sit out here all alone?' said Alice, not wishing to begin an argument.

`Why, because there's nobody with me!' cried Humpty Dumpty. `Did you think I didn't know the answer to that? Ask another.'

`Don't you think you'd be safer down on the ground?' Alice went on, not with any idea of making another riddle, but simply in her good-natured anxiety for the queer creature. `That wall is so very narrow!'

`What tremendously easy riddles you ask!' Humpty Dumpty growled out. `Of course I don't think so! Why, if ever I did fall off -- which there's no chance of -- but if I did --' Here he pursed up his lips, and looked so solemn and grand that Alice could hardly help laughing. `If I did fall,' he went on, `the King has promised me -- ah, you may turn pale, if you like! You didn't think I was going to say that, did you? The King has promised me -- with his very own mouth -- to -- to --'

`To send all his horses and all his men,' Alice interrupted, rather unwisely.

`Now I declare that's too bad!' Humpty Dumpty cried, breaking into a sudden passion. `You've been listening at doors -- and behind trees -- and down chimneys -- or you couldn't have known it!'

`I haven't indeed!' Alice said very gently. `It's in a book.'

`Ah, well! They may write such things in a book,' Humpty Dumpty said in a calmer tone. `That's what you call a History of England, that is. Now, take a good look at me! I'm one that has spoken to a King, Iam: mayhap you'll never see such another: and, to show you I'm not proud, you may shake hands with me!' And he grinned almost from ear to ear, as he leant forwards (and as nearly as possible fell off the wall in doing so) and offered Alice his hand. She watched him a little anxiously as she took it. `If he smiled much more the ends of his mouth might meet behind,' she thought: `And then I don't know what would happen to his head! I'm afraid it would come off!'

`Yes, all his horses and all his men,' Humpty Dumpty went on. `They'd pick me up again in a minute, they would! However, this conversation is going on a little too fast: let's go back to the last remark but one.'

`I'm afraid I can't quite remember it,' Alice said, very politely.

`In that case we start afresh,' said Humpty Dumpty, `and it's my turn to choose a subject --' (`He talks about it just as if it was a game!' thought Alice.) `So here's a question for you. How old did you say you were?'

Alice made a short calculation, and said `Seven years and six months.'

`Wrong!' Humpty Dumpty exclaimed triumphantly. `You never said a word like it!'

`I thought you meant "How old are you?"' Alice explained.

`If I'd meant that, I'd have said it,' said Humpty Dumpty.

---

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`I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'

 

[urroner]

Elsie see my post 715 which is commenting on CC’s post 666.

[greyfoxx39]

I've been following the conversation about sons of perdition, and it's amusing how carefully cherry-picked the responses from both urroner and normandy are.

If what they are stating is correct, it is certainly a change from the early days of the mormon church when Joseph Smith was battling within the church over various "doctrines" he was introducing, and also a change from what was actually taught in the church I grew up in in the 50s and 60s.

However, we are accustomed to the practice of "changing doctrines" that is such a valued part of mormonism...instead of a one size fits all religion, it's becoming a "we will build to fit as the need arises" religion.

Quite educational.

[colorcountry]

I’m not SZ

[colorcountry]

I call it expedient. Perhaps that is why Romney is seen as one who is politically expedient - - always saying or doing what seems right and the time, and then doing an about face when it pleases someone else in another time or place.

Talking out both sides of his mouth.

[urroner]

That depends upon the meaning of the word “damned.” Once again in traditional Christianity, you are either rotting in Hell with Satan forever and living in heavenly bliss with God. In one, you are saved and the other you are damned.

In Mormonism, there are those who will be rotting with Satan and his ilk forever and these are damned in the traditional Christian definition. These people live in what is known as outer darkness. Very few people born in this life will go there.

Then there are the three degrees of glory and within the high degree of glory, there are three separate levels. Please don’t ask me for details of the why’s and wherefore’s. God has filled in all the details to me yet.

In the two lower degrees of glory and in the two lower levels of the CK, the people can not become what those in the highest level of the CK can become, so the lower ones are “damned.” Their growth and progress is limited.

[urroner]

I’m sick as a dog and haven’t slept much for three days. This is the only reason I have been posting on here, otherwise, I would be putting in my 60 to 70 hour weeks out at work.

I apologize for confusing you two.

[greyfoxx39]

In light of “That depends upon the meaning of the word “damned.” ping to my 749 ;)

[Elsie]

From Doctrine and Covenants Section 76:

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born

 

 

Scrambled from...

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Hebrews 6:4-6 

 ⁴It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, ⁵who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, ⁶if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

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John 17:12 

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

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Matthew 26:24

The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

 

 

[Godzilla]

No, there are people who leave Mormonism who I don’t believe turn “utterly against God”.

You are citing exceptions - what is the 'rule'. Reading historic teachings by lds prophets and apostles leaves me wondering.

[Elsie]

or the other end...

[urroner]

If you call what we do “cherry picking” then what do you call all the “cherry picking” of the quotes by those against the Church?

Oh, sorry, forgive me, for you guys to cherry pick that’s fine, in fact, the Lord encourages you to do so, but for us to tell you want we honestly believe is cherry picking.

Carry on greyfoxx. Keep on keeping on.

[Elsie]

The only two people I believe that are identified in scripture as Perdition are Lucifer and Cain. (D&C 76:26; Moses 5:24)

In MORMON scripture...

But in CHRISTIAN Scripture - just JUDAS.

[Normandy]

Actually no, I don’t think this is the exception at all.