Posted on 03/14/2010 8:47:22 PM PDT by Gerhard Ebersöhn
Any theory about on which days of the week our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified and resurrected stands or falls by its answering for the day He was BURIED on: "That Day great day sabbath" of the passover, Abib 15, from its BEGINNING "EVENING HAVING HAD COME", Mk15:42 Mt 27:57 Lk23:50 Jn19:31,38 -- UNTIL its ENDING having begun "MID-AFTERNOON" "by the time of the Jews' prepararions" "the Sabbath (Seventh Day of the week) drawing near", Lk23:54 Jn19:42 -- "That Day having been The Preparation which is The Fore-Sabbath" : the Sixth Day of the week, 'Friday'.
Any theory about on which days of the week our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified AND BURIED and resurrected stands or falls by its answering for 'the God-given and therefore eschatological IMPERATIVE WHOLENESS' (Lohmeyer's words) of the "three days and three nights" "three days" on "the third day" of which "He rose from the dead ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" 1Cor15:3-4 the passover-Scriptures of both the Old and the New Testaments.
I have written more extensively and in depth on the subject than anyone else in the history of Christianity from the standpoint of a Reformed Protestant Christian believer who fully and unconditionally confesses the Apostolic Confession of Faith, and in particular believes the absolute Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ before, during, and after He became Man and died, and was Buried, and rose again unto the eternal salvation and life of the Elect of God.
My books, articles and conversations may be found at http://www.biblestudents.co.za. E-mail me at biblestudents@imaginet.co.za
No need for an individual to rebuke or argue a point already made in Scripture. Don’t take my word for it, take His Word for it. The Abyss exists, Tartarus exists, the Torments exist and Paradise existed for OT believers, all in the underworld known as Hades or as Sheol. Very Scriptural.
Think what you like about ‘hell’; I have better things to think about. Like the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. That for me explains FULLY what ‘hell’ should mean: that ‘hell’ is what Jesus Christ through resurrection from the dead, vanquished.
Then what concerns me here in particular is THE DAY OF THE WEEK Jesus rose from the dead on. Because the apostate Church teaches it was on Sunday; while the Word if God teaches it was “On the Sabbath Day” -— the day of God’s ultimate rest through Jesus Christ; the day of God’s finishing of ALL his WORKS in Christ by having raised Him from the dead: “The Seventh Day” which truth the Sabbatharians most of all the Seventh Day Adventists hate and reject. May the Lord have pity on them.
Yes; He was crucified on Thursday; that means He rose — as Matthew 28:1 says literally: — “On the Sabbath Day even Sabbath’s Fullness in the very light of being day before the First Day of the week”.
Your Plural-story for ‘sabbatohn’ is refuted nonsense. It’s a SIMPLE matter of fact and COMMON SENSE the Plural has the meaning of the (one) Sabbath Day. There are many scholarly treatises on the issue which in my opinion is a non-issue. How do you argue an INSTANTANEOUS EVENT in the end of or late on several days? It’s in the end of the day or late on the day concerned or involved.
What does it help your — correct — viewpoint He was crucified on Thursday to argue the Plural? nothing.
Now you’re talking like ordinary me, may understand. Thanks! ‘Misuse of the Hebrew language’ like someone has said! Meanwhile these folk don’t know the first principles of the Hebrew language but pose for authorities. Like yesterday I received a lecture in Armenian from someone who knew as much as I do about the language — which is zultz — but in two visits to the country developed into a professor in its intricacies.
Nevertheless: This, is unacceptable: “Hence in Jesus’ case, any part of a day, is considered “a day. Friday afternoon...is Friday. Saturday-day, is Saturday. Sunday morning (from Sat. sunset through the night) is Sunday. Three days—by their common sense, common usuage definition—of 1st Century Hebrew culture.”
It is in fact just as simple as you say. But the days were not those you mention. ‘Friday’, Saturday’ and ‘Sunday’ were not the days involved. ‘Thursday’, Friday’ and ‘Sabbath’ (’Saturday’) were the days involved. Sunday was the fourth day after the “three days” “according to the Scriptures”.
Please create your own thread for discussing your ‘hell’-stories?
Yes, I do think about the way people think of "hell". And that is only a very small part of what I spend my time on in my studies. And YES, I especially constantly think and study about the resurrection of Jesus from the dead and what it means to all Christians! In fact, most of my (and the fellowship I affiliate with) writings are on the Resurrection. I will absolutely agree with you that through Jesus' resurrection from the grave that both "hades and death" are to be destroyed - after Judgment Day.
Then what concerns me here in particular is THE DAY OF THE WEEK Jesus rose from the dead on.
I see that :-) It's true that there were more than one Sabbath day the week Jesus was crucified and resurrected. On the first day of the week, i.e., SUNDAY, Jesus was no longer in the grave. Every SUNDAY our assembly celebrates the Resurrection of Jesus - not just the day the majority celebrates ONCE per year. As for Saturday, that was Jesus' last day and night in the grave, according to the Bible.
“The Seventh Day” which truth the Sabbatharians most of all the Seventh Day Adventists hate and reject.
It matters little to me what Sabbatharians think of the Seventh Day Adventists.
May the Lord have pity on them.
That should be "May the Lord have pity on ALL OF US!"
I already created one awhile back. But in this thread it was YOU that brought up the term in your statements and, to me, misapplied it. My whole purpose was to get you to realize that - to no avail apparently :-)
That would make a GREAT greeting card!
Agreed.
I've not missed Rev. 9:11, nor have I ignored the OT. And yes, I know about the Destroyer and the "destruction" of the truth it seeks to destroy. BTW, how about listing the verses from the OT that mentions Abaddon or Apollyon?
4) The Abyss, location of criminal fallen angels, from which some will be released at the middle of the Great Tribulation.
Yes, I know what the Bible says of the 'abyss', but where do you find that "some (of the occupants) will be released at the middle of the Great Tribulation? After all the years of my studies I have never found that - so, I say that "No. 4 is simply an opinion of man, and never found in the Bible." Am I wrong in saying that? If so, WHY?
Obj:
I see that :-) It’s true that there were more than one Sabbath day the week Jesus was crucified and resurrected. On the first day of the week, i.e., SUNDAY, Jesus was no longer in the grave. Every SUNDAY our assembly celebrates the Resurrection of Jesus - not just the day the majority celebrates ONCE per year. As for Saturday, that was Jesus’ last day and night in the grave, according to the Bible.
Ans:
Re: “On the first day of the week, i.e., SUNDAY, Jesus was no longer in the grave. Every SUNDAY our assembly celebrates the Resurrection of Jesus”.
Seeing “on the first day of the week, i.e., SUNDAY, Jesus was no longer in the grave”, why – it’s only logical..... don’t you celebrate the Resurrection of Jesus on every Sabbath which was the day upon which He rose from the dead? Even more because of the spiritual power unto its observance which the historical truth of Jesus’ Resurrection for ever must have for the day He resurrected on?
Yes, indeed, Saturday was, “Jesus’ last day and night in the grave, according to the Bible.” Correctly speaking though – “according to the Bible” – it was the Sabbath – the Seventh Day. Its day the equivalent of Saturday daylight, and its night the equivalent of Friday night. Jesus rose “MID-AFTERNOON SABBATH’S” is what Mt28:1 unequivocally says.
Since I said we celebrate on Sunday your first question above is mute. Christians get together on Sunday to worship, partake of the Lord's supper, fellowship, etc. Seeing as how Sunday is the day we get together, celebrating Jesus' resurrection is only logical - for we don't assemble on Saturday. Need I say more?
Yes, indeed, Saturday (Sabbath) was, “Jesus’ last day and night in the grave, according to the Bible.”
Thank you. Indeed, that was the last day and night Jesus spent in the grave, according to the Bible. Sunday morning, the first day of the week, while it was dawning the women came to the grave to apply the spices they prepared - but the tomb was vacated: Jesus had risen from the dead! Alleluia! (Reference Matthew and Luke's record.)
Hope you had a nice celebration!
So, that “Christians get together on Sunday to worship, partake of the Lord’s supper, fellowship, etc.” is YOUR reason WHY “Sunday is the day we get together, celebrating Jesus’ resurrection”.
I believe, Christians by the fact that Jesus rose from the dead “On the Sabbath Day”, are obliged by faith to get together “On the Sabbath Day” to worship, to partake of the Lord’s supper, to fellowship, etc. -— which was precisely what they DID DO according to Col2:12-19 “BECAUSE He (Jesus) TRIUMPHED IN IT” -— “IT”, his Resurrection from the dead! They got together, celebrating Jesus’ resurrection, while “SABBATHS’ FEASTING” of Christ, “eating and drinking” of Him spiritually, “holding to the Head from which all the Body (the Church) having nourishment ministered, and KNIT TOGETHER, by joints and bands (of and in faith) grows with the growth of God.”
Therefore clearly “Sunday morning, the first day of the week, while it was dawning” and “the women came to the grave to apply the spices they prepared – but” found “the tomb was vacated: Jesus had risen from the dead! Alleluia!” WAS TOTALLY ANOTHER OCCASION AND DAY AND TIME THAN WHEN HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD! He rose from the dead “On the Sabbath” Mt28:1; “the women came to the grave to apply the spices they prepared” and found “the tomb was vacated” “On the First Day of the week” Lk24:1.
Don’t worry; you did the main thing, right: you have the “Alleluia!” in the correct position: applying to Mt28:1`and not applying to Lk24:1. [Therefore clearly “Sunday morning, the first day of the week, while it was dawning” and “the women came to the grave to apply the spices they prepared – but” found “the tomb was vacated: Jesus had risen from the dead! Alleluia!” WAS TOTALLY ANOTHER OCCASION AND DAY AND TIME THAN WHEN HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD! He rose from the dead “On the Sabbath” Mt28:1; “the women came to the grave to apply the spices they prepared” and found “the tomb was vacated” “On the First Day of the week” Lk24:1.]
Absolutely!
I believe, Christians by the fact that Jesus rose from the dead “On the Sabbath Day”, are obliged by faith to get together “On the Sabbath Day” to worship, to partake of the Lord’s supper, to fellowship, etc. -— which was precisely what they DID DO according to Col2:12-19 “BECAUSE He (Jesus) TRIUMPHED IN IT” -— “IT”, his Resurrection from the dead!
That's your perogative. Christians do not keep any day of the week special, nor force the day they meet on others - nor do they ridicule those who meet on days they don't. Meeting on the first day of the week is Biblical; and celebrating the Lord's supper during the assembly is also very Biblical - according to Paul, especially. The Lord's supper, according to the Bible, was celebrated when they met on the first day of the week - a celebration to remember Jesus' death and resurrection until He comes again! There is no obligation for a Christian to celebrate Jesus' resurrection on a Saturday anywhere in the Bible. Do you find anything wrong with what I said?
Therefore clearly “Sunday morning, the first day of the week, while it was dawning” and “the women came to the grave to apply the spices they prepared – but” found “the tomb was vacated: Jesus had risen from the dead! Alleluia!” WAS TOTALLY ANOTHER OCCASION AND DAY AND TIME THAN WHEN HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD! He rose from the dead “On the Sabbath” Mt28:1; “the women came to the grave to apply the spices they prepared” and found “the tomb was vacated” “On the First Day of the week” Lk24:1.
Actually, I have no problem with that. No one knows the exact hour of Christ's resurrection, just that as the first day of the week was dawning He was not in the grave. The Jewish day and night starts at sunup to sunup. Figure three days and nights from the time he was buried, which was right before sundown. So, I have no problem if one says he could have risen a minute after the sunset on the Sabbath (Our Saturday) - however, Jesus may have risen one minute before sunrise on the first day of the week, Sunday in our reckoning.
How can you have “no problem with that” -— ‘that’ .... where I wrote, “He rose from the dead “On the Sabbath” Mt28:1”? Because it does not tell “the exact hour of Christ’s resurrection”? The exact words of Matthew in 28:1 are: “In the fullness of the Sabbath, Sabbath’s in the very daylight being” or “epi-centre declining light being” WHICH MEANS EXACTLY and literally as can be: “mid-afternoon”. What more exact ‘hour of Christ’s resurrection’ do you require?
Have a nice day; it’s bed-time for me now. More to follow DV
Just what Bible are you reading from? My Greek copy sure doesn't match what your words describe; neither does the KJV, the NIV, nor 21 other Bibles I have access to.
If I knew how to get the Greek terms onto the forum I would post them. But in English, it is translated (literally):
"But late of the sabbaths, at the dawning on the first day of the week (or - toward one of the sabbaths), came Mary the Magdelene and the other Mary to view the grave."
Luke 24:1 is Luke's record of the same event! However, one should not read just Luke 24:1 alone - one should also read the context which starts in 23:50.
Let the Bible interpret itself - it does a terrific job of making things a little clearer. Keep pre-conceived ideas hidden behind a screen.
Ans:
First, from your objections to my statements here, it is clear you understand me very well. Without that, it would be impossible to discuss anything further.
Therefore:
Re: “Just what Bible are you reading from? My Greek copy sure doesn’t match what your words describe; neither does the KJV....”
KJV, Mt28:1 (emphasis GE), “IN the end OF THE SABBATH as it BEGAN to dawn TOWARDS the First Day .....”. ‘New KJV’, Mt28:1, “AFTER the Sabbath....”; Justin Martyr: “After the Day of Saturn .... ON the Lord’s day (meaning Sunday)”; “Phillips, “When the Sabbath was over ....”; RSV, AFTER the Sabbath; MLB “After the close of the S.”; LB, “Early ON SUNDAY ....”. Clearly these examples except the KJV have something in common; not so much their agreement on saying Mt28: must read ‘AFTER the S.” and “ON the FD.” Because that is consequential of the Sunday-resurrection syndrome of modern times -— but their TIME of composition as such! They are all ADAPTATIONS of the real Scripture of Mt28:1 to ‘dynamic equivalent’ method and INTERPRETATION, of it. (I am sure you know what I’m referring to. I’m referring to the 20th century reviews of (the old) Protestant Scriptural translations, dominated by and conditioned to Roman Catholic auspices and authoritarianism.) In most simple language, the ‘new’ quasi-translations are the REVERSAL of the TRUE and CORRECT, OLD, ENGLISH Translations from Tyndale and even Wycliffe’s until the nineteenth century. They are: FALSE! So, a recommend as a golden rule, never to mention the KJV in the same breath with ‘versions’ like NIV. Especially not when cross-referencing involves texts on the Sabbath of the New Testament.
I was not surprised at all by your post.
But I was surprised because you said, “.... My Greek copy sure doesn’t match what your words describe....”. I therefore return your question: Just what Greek copy are you reading from? Because ‘my’ Greek New Testament – Nestle Aland (‘minority texts’) and included, the ‘Received Text’ (‘Majority Text’ used by Erasmus) –, sure does match what my words describe EXACTLY AND LITERALLY. And surely does match each and every use of the words concerned throughout all Greek literature even the ‘late Greek’ used by Philostratus two to three centuries after the close of the NT Canon, as confirmed by the best of the best of Greek scholarship.
Re:
“If I knew how to get the Greek terms onto the forum I would post them. But in English, it is translated (literally):
“But late of the sabbaths, at the dawning on the first day of the week (or - toward one of the sabbaths), came Mary the Magdelene and the other Mary to view the grave.....””
Ans:
I have developed my own transliteration, and find it working very comfortably; so kindly allow me presenting to you the Greek as is. Remarkably there are absolutely NO ‘variants’!
Mt28:1: “opse de sabbaothn tehi epifohskousehi eis mian sabbatohn ehlthen M. kai heh alleh M. theohrehsai ton tafon kai IDOU seismos (megas) egeneto.....”
“opse de” -— “Late on / late in”: ‘real’ ADVERB of time;
“sabbatohn” -— Sabbath’s / on the Sabbath / of the Sabbath / Sabbath’s-in-essence’: Adverbial Noun of time and kind or quality: ‘Sabbath’s-time’;
“sabbatohn” -— RELATIVE Noun to both “opse” AND “tehi epifohskousehi” .....
“tehi” -— “in the / during / verily (emphatically) with / by means of”;
“epifohskousehi” -— Noun Dative Adverbially of time and emphasis: “in-the-very-epi-centre-in-being-day-light-inclining-towards” (not ‘declining’);
“eis” – Preposition in context of TIME without exception used in the NT with the meaning of: “with the view to / towards / before / (the present day) tending to (or the oncoming day) pending”;
“mian” – “first” by ellipse, ‘mian hehmeran’ -— “First Day” with resultant Genitive: “sabbatohn” with generic sense of “the week”: “the First Day of the week”.
“Ehlthen M. kai M. ....” -— “came Mary the Magdelene and the other Mary to view the grave”, BETTER: “SET OUT / departed TO view”
“kai idou egeneto” -— “then suddenly / look out! / exactly THEN .... there was ....!” the “great earthquake THAT MARKED THE MOMENT of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead -— not mentioned but absolutely implied.
And THUS: “the angel described / explained / answered the women and said ....” verse five a, on the Sunday morning shortly before Jesus would appear to them on their way to tell the disciples what the angel had told them.
Re:
Luke 24:1 is Luke’s record of the same event! However, one should not read just Luke 24:1 alone - one should also read the context which starts in 23:50.....
Ans:
You having claimed “Luke 24:1 is Luke’s record of the same event!” now have started the myriad of blatant discrepancies between the Gospel accounts, too many to go into now. As you say, “Let the Bible interpret itself - it does a terrific job of making things a little clearer. Keep pre-conceived ideas hidden behind a screen”. Just one ‘point’: “one should also read the context which starts in 23:50.....” The context of the DAY BEFORE – of BURIAL-DAY -— “starts in 23:50” which ‘context’ ENDED in Lk23:54-56. The context of Matthew’s account in 28:1 of the TIME of the event of the great earthquake from which one should deduce when the Resurrection happened, ‘starts’ in 27:62; or even further back .... and may include EVERYTHING Matthew recorded as having occurred since Jesus died and the graves opened until after He appeared to the women other than Mary -— which things none of the other Gospels even hint at. These things may all have been “explained to the women” by the angel of Sunday morning, at least 15 hours after the Resurrection as such “On the Sabbath mid-afternoon” BEFORE.
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