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To: Cronos
What he was before is little consequence, again the non-baptism of a believer. Paul wasn't a model Christian before he was called by God.

He was not as deep a theologian when made bishop -- true, but his epistles date fromAFTER that, when he made the effort to learn and to teach what he had learnt. And this was effective -- St. Augustine heard this and converted!

The important part, he was saved, and provided instruction that others could be as well. Hallelujah.

577 posted on 03/18/2010 8:29:39 AM PDT by xone
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To: xone; wmfights
xone: What he was before is little consequence, again the non-baptism of a believer. Paul wasn't a model Christian before he was called by God.

That's something you should have posted to wmfights who said Ambrose is the one being quoted in this thread "Mary is the Temple of God". It's good to know the real background.
As the histories point out He was not as deep a theologian when made bishop -- true, but his epistles date fromAFTER that, when he made the effort to learn and to teach what he had learnt. And this was effective -- St. Augustine heard this and converted! and as you, xone, correctly pointed out The important part, he was saved, and provided instruction that others could be as well. Hallelujah.

Ambrose was a saintly man -- whether he started out bad (like Paul or Augstine), he was saved and became a Doctor of The Church and spread and taught Church doctrine.
602 posted on 03/18/2010 10:00:16 PM PDT by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: wmfights; Ken4TA; betty boop; Cvengr; roamer_1; stfassisi; Running On Empty; Tax-chick; Iscool; ...
Wm --> if one reads scripture in depth and entirety one sees that scripture disagrees with you about the sacrament of Baptism -- both xone and I believe that it is NOT merely a symbol and to prove that we quote
When the Redeemer declares (John 3) that it is necessary to be born again of water and the Holy Ghost in order to enter the Kingdom of God, His words may be justly understood to mean that He includes all who are capable of having a right to this kingdom. Now, He has asserted such a right even for those who are not adults, when He says (Matthew 19:14): "Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such." It has been objected that this latter text does not refer to infants, inasmuch as Christ says "to come to me". In the parallel passage in St. Luke (18:15), however, the text reads: "And they brought unto him also infants, that he might touch them"; and then follow the words cited from St. Matthew. In the Greek text, the words brephe and prosepheron refer to infants in arms.

and

Moreover, St. Paul (Colossians 2) says that baptism in the New Law has taken the place of circumcision in the Old. It was especially to infants that the rite of circumcision was applied by Divine precept. If it be said that there is no example of the baptism of infants to be found in the Bible, we may answer that infants are included in such phrases as: "She was baptized and her household" (Acts 16:15); "Himself was baptized, and all his house immediately" (Acts 16:33); "I baptized the household of Stephanus" (1 Corinthians 1:16).


To the objection that baptism requires faith, theologians reply that adults must have faith, but infants receive habitual faith, which is infused into them in the sacrament of regeneration. As to actual faith, they believe on the faith of another; as St. Augustine (De Verb. Apost., xiv, xviii) beautifully says: "He believes by another, who has sinned by another."

Question -- what do you believe for those perpetually insane? Do you baptise them?


And, the proof that the Early Church DID baptise infants is from here by St. Cyprian of Carthage
In respect to the case of infants, which you say ought not to be baptised within the second or third day after birth, and that hte law of ncient circumcision be regarded, so that you think that one who is just born should not be baptised and sanctified within the eighth day,we all thought very differently in our council. For in this course which you thought was to be taken, no one agreed; but we all rather judge that the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one born of man.. we ought to shrink from hindering an infant, who being lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh accrding to Adam, he has ontracted teh contagion of the ancient death as its earliest birth, who approaches the more easily on this very account to the reception of the forgiveness of sins -- that to him are remitted, not his own sincs, but the sins of another (Adam)
And from Origen (c 185 to 254)
The Church received from the Apostles the tradition of giving Baptism even to infants. For the Apostles, to whom were committed teh secrets of divine mysteries, knew that there is in everyone the innate stains of sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit
and from St. Augustine in Epistle 28
Who is so impious as to wish to exclude infants from the kindgom of heaven by forbidding them to be baptised and born again in Christ? This the Church always had, always held; this she received from the faith of our ancestors; this she perserveringly guards even to the end

Whoever says that even infants are vivified in Christ when they depart this life without the participation of His Sacrament (Baptism), both opposes the Apostolic preaching and condemns the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they can not possibly be vivified in Christ,"


Scripture, Tradition and History hold to the viewpoint shared by Orthodox, Orientals, Catholics, Lutherans and Anglicans that baptism is NOT just a symbol and that it is valid for infants.
605 posted on 03/18/2010 10:04:31 PM PDT by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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To: wmfights; Ken4TA; betty boop; Cvengr; roamer_1; stfassisi; Running On Empty; Tax-chick; Iscool; ...
from Tim Staples book Surprised by Truth
I toook Jimmy Swaggart's challenge: 'We would like to challenge the Catholic Church to demonstrate that the saints and martyrs of the first three hundred years accepted the beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church as it exists today' I acquired a copy of J.B. Lightfoot's The Apostolic Fathers and devoured it. I went to the library on campus and began to study the ives and works of other Fathers of The CHurch, reading their writings in the original Greek and checking their theological arguments against what the Greek text of Scripture said. I researched all of the early councils of The CHurch. To my dismay, all I found was Catholic truth. I could not believe Brother Jimmy couldd have read what I read and issued his 'challenge'. The writings of the Church Fathers clearly show that the early Church ws Catholic long before the time of the Emperor Constantine"
The 'symbolic view' of Baptism originates as a doctrin of the Anabaptists movement which broke away from MArtin Luther's reform efforts

Both Catholicism and Orthodoxy hold to the sacramental and efficacious nature of baptism.

And yet those outside the Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Churches ask: are we saved by faith or by baptism? Are we saved by beleiving or by the Spirit? These are false dichtomies.

If youwant to receive salvation, justification, new birth and eternal life, what does scripture say?
By believeing in Christ (Jm 3:16, Acts 16:31)
By repentance Acts 2:38, 2 Pet3:9
By baptism Jm 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21, Titus 3:5
By the work of the Spirit Jm 3:5, 2 Cor 3:6
By declaring wit our mouths Lk 12:8, Rom 10:9
By coming to a knowledge of the truth 1 Tim 2:4, Heb 10:26
By works Rom 2:6, Jame 2:24
By grace Acts 15:11, Eph 2:8
By His blood Rom 5:9, Heb 9:22
By His righteousness Rom 5:17, 2 Pet 1:1
By His Cross Eph 2:16, Col 2:14

We can't take out any ONE of these and proclaim it ALONE as themeans of salvation. The Bible is a book in it's entirety -- no one part contradicts the other. To restrict this to faith alone or works alone is false -- salvation, justification is more than that, Can we be saved without faith? No. Can we besaved without repenteance? No. Withotu God's face? No. Without Baptism? No. Without the Holy Spirit? No

These are all involved and necessary, you cannot dismiss one as the means of obtaining eternal life, neither can ONE be emphasized to the exclusion of another. They are all involved in salvation and entry into The CHurch. The CHurch does not divide these various elements of salvation up, overemphasizing some while ignoring others: rather, she holds them all in their fullness

607 posted on 03/18/2010 10:08:30 PM PDT by Cronos (Philipp2:12, 2Cor5:10, Rom2:6, Matt7:21, Matt22:14, Lu12:42-46,John15:1-10,Rev2:4-5,Rev22:19)
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