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Locked on 03/01/2010 11:24:30 AM PST by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior |
Posted on 02/28/2010 10:27:03 PM PST by restornu
Through Joseph Smith have been restored all the powers, keys, teachings, and ordinances necessary for salvation and exaltation.
Suppose for a moment someone told you these three facts about a New Testament personality and nothing more: first, the Savior said of this man, “O thou of little faith” (Matthew 14:31); second, this man, in a moment of anger, cut off an ear of the high priest’s servant; and third, this man denied knowing who the Savior was on three occasions, even though he had walked with Him daily.
If that is all you knew or focused upon, you might have thought this man a scoundrel or a no-good, but in the process you would have failed to come to know one of the greatest men who ever walked the earth: Peter the Apostle.
Similarly, attempts have been made by some to focus upon or magnify some minor weaknesses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, but in that process they too have missed the mark, the man, and his mission.
Joseph Smith was the Lord’s anointed to restore Christ’s Church to the earth. When he emerged from the grove of trees, he eventually learned four fundamental truths not then taught by the majority of the contemporary Christian world.
First, he learned that God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, are two separate, distinct beings.
The Bible confirms Joseph Smith’s discovery.
It tells us that the Son submitted His will to the Father (see Matthew 26:42).
We are moved by the Savior’s submission and find strength in His example to do likewise, but what would have been the depth and passion of Christ’s submission or the motivational power of that example if the Father and the Son were the same being and in reality the Son was merely following His own will under a different name?
The scriptures give further evidence of this great truth: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son” (John 3:16).
A father offering up his only son is the supreme demonstration of love that the human mind and heart can conceive and feel.
It is symbolized by the touching story of Abraham and Isaac (see Genesis 22).
But if the Father is the same being as the Son, then this sacrifice of all sacrifices is lost, and Abraham is no longer offering up Isaac—Abraham is now offering up Abraham.
The second great truth Joseph Smith discovered was that the Father and the Son have glorified bodies of flesh and bones.
Following the Savior’s Resurrection, He appeared to His disciples and said, “Handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:39).
Some have suggested this was a temporary physical manifestation and that when He ascended to heaven He shed His body and returned to His spirit form. But the scriptures tell us this was not possible.
Paul taught, “Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him” (Romans 6:9).
In other words, once Christ was resurrected, His body could never again be separated from His spirit; otherwise He would suffer death, the very consequence Paul said was no longer possible after His Resurrection.
The third truth that Joseph Smith learned was that God still speaks to man today—that the heavens are not closed.
One need but ask three questions, once proposed by President Hugh B. Brown, to arrive at that conclusion (see “The Profile of a Prophet,” Liahona, June 2006, 13; Ensign, June 2006, 37).
First, does God love us as much today as He loved the people to whom He spoke in New Testament times?
Second, does God have the same power today as He did then?
And third, do we need Him as much today as they needed Him anciently?
If the answers to those questions are yes and if God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, as the scriptures so declare (see Mormon 9:9), then there is little doubt: God does speak to man today exactly as Joseph Smith testified.
The fourth truth that Joseph Smith learned was that the full and complete Church of Jesus Christ was not then upon the earth.
Of course there were good people and some components of the truth, but the Apostle Paul had anciently prophesied that the Second Coming of Christ would not come “except there come a falling away first” (2 Thessalonians 2:3).
Following Joseph Smith’s First Vision, the Restoration of Christ’s Church commenced “line upon line, precept upon precept” (D&C 98:12).
Through Joseph Smith was restored the doctrine of the gospel being preached to the dead in the spirit world to those who did not have a fair chance on earth to hear it (see D&C 128:5–22; see also D&C 138:30–34).
This was not the invention of a creative mind; it was the restoration of a biblical truth. Peter had long ago taught, “For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit” (1 Peter 4:6).
Frederic W. Farrar, the well-known Church of England author and theologian, made the following observation about this teaching of Peter: “Every effort has been made to explain away the plain meaning of this passage.
It is one of the most precious passages of Scripture, and it involves no ambiguity. . . . For if language have any meaning, this language means that Christ, when His Spirit descended into the lower world, proclaimed the message of salvation to the once impenitent dead” (The Early Days of Christianity [1883], 78).
Many teach that there is one heaven and one hell. Joseph Smith restored the truth that there are multiple heavens. Paul spoke of a man who was caught up into the third heaven (see 2 Corinthians 12:2).
Could there be a third heaven if there was no second heaven or first heaven?
In many ways the gospel of Jesus Christ is like a 1,000-piece jigsaw puzzle. When Joseph Smith came on the scene, perhaps 100 pieces were in place.
Then Joseph Smith came along and put many of the other 900 pieces in place so that people could say, “Oh, now I understand where I came from, why I am here, and where I am going.” As for Joseph Smith’s role in the Restoration, the Lord defined it clearly: “This generation shall have my word through you” (D&C 5:10).
In spite of this flood of restored biblical truths, some honest searchers have commented: “I can accept these doctrines, but what about all those angels and visions Joseph Smith claimed to have?
It seems so hard to believe in modern times.”
To those honest searchers, we lovingly respond: “Were there not angels and visions in Christ’s Church in New Testament times? Did not an angel appear to Mary and to Joseph?
Did not angels appear to Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration?
Did not an angel rescue Peter and John from prison?
Did not an angel appear to Cornelius, then to Paul before he was shipwrecked and to John on the Isle of Patmos?
Did not Peter have a vision of the gospel going to the Gentiles, Paul a vision of the third heaven, John a vision of the latter days, and Stephen a vision of the Father and Son?”
Yes, Joseph Smith did see angels and visions—because he was the instrument in God’s hands to restore the same Church of Jesus Christ as existed in primitive times—all of its powers as well as all of its doctrines.
Yet sorrowfully, on occasion, some are willing to set aside the precious gospel truths restored by Joseph Smith because they get diverted on some historical issue or some scientific hypothesis not central to their exaltation, and in so doing they trade their spiritual birthright for a mess of pottage.
They exchange the absolute certainty of the Restoration for a doubt, and in that process they fall into the trap of losing faith in the many things they do know because of a few things they do not know.
There will always be some seemingly intellectual crisis looming on the horizon as long as faith is required and our minds are finite, but likewise there will always be the sure and solid doctrines of the Restoration to cling to, which will provide the rock foundation upon which our testimonies may be built.
When many of Christ’s followers turned from Him, He asked His Apostles, “Will ye also go away?”
Peter then responded with an answer that should be engraved on every heart: “To whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:66–68).
If someone turns from these restored doctrines, where will he go to learn the true nature of God as taught in the grove of trees?
Where will he go to find the doctrines of the premortal existence, baptism for the dead, and eternal marriage?
And where will he go to find the sealing powers that can bind husbands and wives and children beyond the grave?
Through Joseph Smith have been restored all the powers, keys, teachings, and ordinances necessary for salvation and exaltation.
You cannot go anywhere else in the world and get that.
It is not to be found in any other church.
It is not to be found in any philosophy of man or scientific digest or individual pilgrimage, however intellectual it may seem.
Salvation is to be found in one place alone, as so designated by the Lord Himself when He said that this is “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” (D&C 1:30).
I bear my witness that Joseph Smith was the prophet of the Restoration, just as he claimed to be. I echo the strains of that stirring hymn: “Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!” (“Praise to the Man,” Hymns, no. 27). In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
On all threads, but particularly “open” threads, posters must never “make it personal.” Reading minds and attributing motives are forms of “making it personal.” Making a thread “about” another Freeper is “making it personal.”
When in doubt, review your use of the pronoun “you” before hitting “enter.”
Like the Smoky Backroom, the conversation may be offensive to some.
Thin-skinned posters will be booted from “open” threads because in the town square, they are the disrupters.
http://www.freerepublic.com/~religionmoderator/
Thin-skinned (emotional, whiney or mercurial temper) posters are the disruptors on open threads.
Just because you sleep in a garage doesn't make you a car.
I would comment but I would not want to accused of antagonism or hostility.
Then why isn’t this thread being pulled as a duplicate?
I’m not going to insult you, but it can be argued that you insult us with your proselytizing and calling Joseph Smith a prophet. Then you taunt people by saying only those who agree with you are allowed on your thread.
If you’ve ever seen the Christian rapture threads around here, you would know that religious perspectives often draw a lot of fire. You appear very thin skinned in these matters. Such a perspective accomplishes little for your point of view.
Good points.
Preach nothing but faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. We Mormons have always been reviled. But we do find joy in our faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior of mankind.
The desire to seek and remain in safe harbour is rather telling....
Each denomination who professes faith in Christ believes different things about Christ, different particular, thus they believe in different Christs.
The important thing is that, despite being long and continually derided by other Christian faiths, we members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints love and worship and find hope in our faith in Christ as Savior of the world.
Restornu,
It would seem that by posting an article that says, “Through Joseph Smith have been restored all the powers, keys, teachings, and ordinances necessary for salvation and exaltation,” your own article is attacking with hostility those who believe that none of those things we necessary to restore.
RM, is this article within the guidelines of a true ecumenical article? How can you discuss without antagonism when someone starts the thread by condemning all other faiths as inadequate?
best,
ampu
The victimhood you claim as “The important thing” is not important in this discussion.
The fact remains, LdS doctrine clearly teaches of a different Christ in a manner that many Christians find blasphemous. As well as LdS teachings and doctrine regarding God.
Good day.
According to RM, the same article can be posted after the original thread has no recent activity for a time. The original thread is months old.
This is also true of articles posted as "caucus" or "ecumenical".
Correct, RM?
So this is another “pity party” post.
Since JS called Christians “whores of Babylon” it makes me wonder why you would want to be called Christian.
I’m not going to insult you, but it can be argued that you insult us with your proselytizing and calling Joseph Smith a prophet. Then you taunt people by saying only those who agree with you are allowed on your thread.
***
How so?
So you want to deny religion freedom under this constitution.
Just like the radio or TV you can pass by that air wave the same in cyber space you can pass by a thread that you do not like!
You call it thin skin
I call it being shouted down by those who can yell the loudest so if the children who strive to be walk with the Lord should not return likewise how can that be considered thin skin.
Many want to speak of things of the Lord but when observed closely it is the individuals will and not the Lord’s will they are imposing!
The Lord tell us how to act towards one another to do so otherwise is no longer the will of the Lord but the will of man!
Gal 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
What many are asking for is to be contentious and that in itself is incongruent to the spirit of the Lord!
I am not the Lord who can discern the hearts and minds that are not reveal by their own admission.
So the Lord tell His children how to conduct themselves towards one and other which is within the sphere of the Holy Ghost when the spirit of the Lord is not invited or present then it is a free for all and has nothing to do with God.
You might also want to read Romans 8 for the Lord tells us what is of Him and what is of the Natural man.
Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
SZonian,
Basically you are saying that if people don’t have the same beliefs about Christ as you believe, they aren’t Christian. Got it.
we believe in the atoning sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ and in His status as God and Savior of mankind.
__________________________________________
However unlike Christians who believe that all that happened on the Cross, and call it Salvation, and a finished work, as Jesus did, Mormons believe it happened in the Gardan of Eden, and merely call it “atoning” and an unfinished work...
The Cross where Jesus shed His blood and died to save us makes all the difference...
Even Hinckley admitted that the Jesus of Chrsitianity was not the Jesus of mormonism...
Not the same Jesus
“There are those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Christ.
No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.”
– LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley (LDS Church News, June 20, 1998)
And while Mormons believe they can save themselves, chrsitians believe only Jesus saved us...
...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world...” (Lds “prophet” John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163).
And while Mormons believe they need Joseph Smith for salvation and to allow them into the Mormon afterlife, Chrsitians believe that a bellieve in Jesus as God and Savior and repentance and forgiveness of our sins gain us eternal entrance into Heaven where God is...
There is “no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God”
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
“If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]”
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
Jesus said to him, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man or woman comes to the Father except by me.” Jophn 14:6
While Christians believe the words of Jesus when He said people must hear the Good News of Salvation and believe in Him in this life to be saved, to be born again, Mormons believe necro water baptism by proxy of people who died as non-Mormons will cause “atoning” after death...
“... mortals have to be saviors on Mount Zion, acting by proxy for the dead.” (LDS “prophet” Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 325)
Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.” John 3:3
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
And then Jesus told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15, 16
(This requires the hearer to be alive in order to believe or not)
As to “His status as God” which is a new concept I only read for the first time from your post, while Christians have always believed in the Trinity, the Holy Three in One, God the Father, God the Son, Jesus, the Word, and God the Holy Ghost, (1 John 5:7) Mormon deny the Trinity and have called Christians, “Triniterians” with the emphasis of an “N” word...
Moemons discount the Trinity or Jesus being God to the point that the last line of a popular old Christian Hymm “Holy Holy Holy Lord God Almighty” was changed by the Mormons from “God in Three Persons, Holy Trinity” and is sung by the Mormon Tabernacle Choirto be sung as “God in his glory, blessed deity”
Think I’ll go get a coffee while waiting for a reply to that fantastic informative post.
Tennesse Nana,
Some of your information is wrong. We believe the Atonement of Jesus Christ comprises the time in Gesthemene and on the Cross.
Let’s be clear here: Because Mormons don’t share the exact same tenants you do, you call us non-Christian even though we believe Jesus Christ is God and the Savior of the world.
We Mormons should be used to being derided, but it still baffles me.
I guess we can share, at least, a faith in Jesus Christ, a love for Him, and the need for his Atonement.
That is not what I said and keeping it in context with my earlier post, that should be abundantly clear.
If you are not aware, I will enlighten you.
I’m an apostate.
Might I suggest that you peruse the RM’s page on Religion Forum posting. Attempting to read minds or put words in others’ mouths is bad form.
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