Posted on 02/28/2010 8:30:39 AM PST by CondoleezzaProtege
John Calvin's 16th century reply to medieval Catholicism's buy-your-way-out-of-purgatory excesses is Evangelicalism's latest success story, complete with an utterly sovereign and micromanaging deity, sinful and puny humanity, and the combination's logical consequence, predestination: the belief that before time's dawn, God decided whom he would save (or not), unaffected by any subsequent human action or decision.
Calvinism, cousin to the Reformation's other pillar, Lutheranism, is a bit less dour than its critics claim: it offers a rock-steady deity who orchestrates absolutely everything, including illness (or home foreclosure!), by a logic we may not understand but don't have to second-guess. Our satisfaction — and our purpose — is fulfilled simply by "glorifying" him. In the 1700s, Puritan preacher Jonathan Edwards invested Calvinism with a rapturous near mysticism. Yet it was soon overtaken in the U.S. by movements like Methodism that were more impressed with human will. Calvinist-descended liberal bodies like the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) discovered other emphases, while Evangelicalism's loss of appetite for rigid doctrine — and the triumph of that friendly, fuzzy Jesus — seemed to relegate hard-core Reformed preaching (Reformed operates as a loose synonym for Calvinist) to a few crotchety Southern churches.
No more. Neo-Calvinist ministers and authors don't operate quite on a Rick Warren scale. But, notes Ted Olsen, a managing editor at Christianity Today, "everyone knows where the energy and the passion are in the Evangelical world" — with the pioneering new-Calvinist John Piper of Minneapolis, Seattle's pugnacious Mark Driscoll and Albert Mohler, head of the Southern Seminary of the huge Southern Baptist Convention. The Calvinist-flavored ESV Study Bible sold out its first printing, and Reformed blogs like Between Two Worlds are among cyber-Christendom's hottest links.
(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...
Based on the prophecy of God.
Agreed. I never denied that. I take issue with the calvinists who claim most can't--that they were created for the express purpose of being sent to hell.
If God knows everything, then He knows before a person is born whether it’s heaven or hell.
I don’t know how to get around that fact and still believe that God knows everything.
The only way I know to get away from it is to suggest that God does not know everything.
If we go there, then throw out everything you know about God and about our future. It would mean that everything is up in the air, and God “thinks” it’ll work out all right, but He doesn’t “know” it.
Agreed. God is omniscient.
I don’t know how to get around that fact and still believe that God knows everything.
Knowing something and causing something are two different things. A limited god can only cause things to happen--a truly sovereign God knows what will happen--without being a cause--and the outcome is still what He wants.
God is sovereign in a universe full of independent free will. Doesn't that just make your skin tingle? The fact that He doesn't have to force everything in order to get what He wants? He's better than that.
The point is--we make the decision. We have full freedom to do so. Otherwise, the defense at the Judgement would be that we didn't have a chance. Since God is perfect Justice, that argument will not be allowed to stand (and it would be valid). As a result, He must allow us that free decision.
How does He do that--Titus says that the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men. That allows us the freedom to make the choice.
The calvinist idea of God's glory is incorrect (Just who is He gonna show His glory to, if we're just objects of it?). If all God wanted was glory, He wouldn't have saved Noah and his family. He would have just started all over again with no one able to resist Him--thus "showing" Lucifer how powerful He is.
Instead, God decided to redeem us. Even with the evil in men's hearts, He still loved us enough to save His creation. This is all about His love for us--not about how powerful He is. He showed His power with Noah. Now He's showing us His love.
Love is not creating beings with no chance to be saved. Love is offering that chance and letting us make that decision.
But you are not going to get anywhere. Calvinism
is a sad obsession.
And I am going to renounce my participation in this
Sisyphean struggle as I am predestined to do !
If so, is your Semper Fi then to Lucifer? May it never be.
..."If the average American citizen were asked, who was the founder of America, the true author of our great Republic, he might be puzzled to answer. We can imagine his amazement at hearing the answer given to this question by the famous German historian, Ranke, one of the profoundest scholars of modern times. Says Ranke, 'John Calvin was the virtual founder of America.'"12
D'Aubigne, whose history of the Reformation is a classic, writes: "Calvin was the founder of the greatest of republics. The Pilgrims who left their country in the reign of James I, and landing on the barren soil of New England, founded populous and mighty colonies, were his sons, his direct and legitimate sons; and that American nation which we have seen growing so rapidly boasts as its father the humble Reformer on the shore of Lake Leman."13
Dr. E. W. Smith says, "These revolutionary principles of republican liberty and self-government, taught and embodied in the system of Calvin, were brought to America, and in this new land where they have borne so mighty a harvest were planted, by whose hands? — the hands of the Calvinists. The vital relation of Calvin and Calvinism to the founding of the free institutions of America, however strange in some ears the statement of Ranke may have sounded, is recognized and affirmed by historians of all lands and creeds."14
All this has been thoroughly understood and candidly acknowledged by such penetrating and philosophic historians as Bancroft, who far though he was from being Calvinistic in his own personal convictions, simply calls Calvin "the father of America," and adds: "He who will not honor the memory and respect the influence of Calvin knows but little of the origin of American liberty."
When we remember that two-thirds of the population at the time of the Revolution had been trained in the school of Calvin, and when we remember how unitedly and enthusiastically the Calvinists labored for the cause of independence, we readily see how true are the above testimonies....
CALVINISM IN AMERICA By Loraine Boettner
(excerpt, emphasis mine)
Cordially,
The "Predetermination or Human Choice" conundrum is part of every religion .......and, yes, even atheism.......
The question of whether or not the atheist gets that job he wants is the culmination of the many trillions of bio-chemical and physical events which preceded the date of the "employment decision." How can there be actual "choice" if the only thing that exists is the material universe?
To load "predestination/free wil" as somehow a christian issue is to misunderstand the basic philosophical conundrum.
“God is omniscient.”
......”a truly sovereign God knows what will happen—without being a cause—and the outcome is still what He wants.”
Both of your statements raise a couple of questions;
Isn’t the salvation procured by Jesus an intervening cause?
Can a person freely choose differently than what was known about him before he was born?
You are defining “known about him” differently. You are implying causation. God knows what the perfectly free decision will be. The decision is still ours, and we are perfectly capable of making that decision—either direction.
“You are defining “known about him” differently. You are implying causation.”
No, what I am asking is can a person change his mind and choose differently than what was known before he was born? In other words, can one be said to have chosen freely if his destiny was set by choices he was forseen to have made before he was born?
It seems to me that in your definition of sovereignty, all that is happening now is just a rerun of a movie that was seen in eternity passed and everyone’s destiny has been dertermined before they were born.
A person can change his mind--but that would also have been foreseen. The difference is that man was created to make that choice--not to be sent to hell for the sole purpose of revealing God's glory. Omniscience does not imply causation.
It seems to me that in your definition of sovereignty, all that is happening now is just a rerun of a movie that was seen in eternity passed and everyone’s destiny has been dertermined before they were born.
That is more like the calvinist view. I am arguing against that. People's destinies, while known beforehand, are not caused beforehand. We make those decisions.
“That is more like the calvinist view. I am arguing against that. People’s destinies, while known beforehand, are not caused beforehand. We make those decisions.”
Whether you are right or Calvinists are right, in either position the number of persons condemned to hell was fixed before the foundation of the world and as history plays itself out, nothing can change that number. A person can only make the choices he was forseen to make before the foundation of the world. Since God makes the rules, doesn’t his omniscience then have a deterministic component to it? If He knows, it has to be true.
Your interpretation of sovereignty is similar to a Deists understanding since God can’t intervene in history since that intervention could be construed as “causation”; again, history is just a rerun.
No. Knowledge is not causation.
God can’t intervene in history since that intervention could be construed as “causation”; again, history is just a rerun.
I never said He can't intervene. Scripture and history are full of instances where He has intervened. Note what's missing though--His forcing people to make decisions He wants. He persuades, He talks, He smites (in the OT), but He never forces someone to change their mind.
Also note that I am NOT saying He is unable to do this. I am claiming that He is unwilling to do this. Big difference.
History is not "just a rerun." We need to make these decisions on our own--so that we KNOW we are responsible. This is not for His benefit--it's for ours.
“I never said He can’t intervene. Scripture and history are full of instances where He has intervened. Note what’s missing though—His forcing people to make decisions He wants. He persuades, He talks, He smites (in the OT), but He never forces someone to change their mind.”
What about Paul?
Paul happened to also believe that he was doing the Lord's work by persecuting Christians. The persuasion wasn't that difficult, once Paul realized Who he was talking to.
There was a time when I would have responded just like you. And I couldn't answer the questions either. That caused me to think about the questions some more.
A limited god can only cause things to happen--a truly sovereign God knows what will happen--without being a cause--and the outcome is still what He wants.
See, right there that makes no sense, in terms of who a sovereign Creator of all existence is. Who is the greater, stronger, more involved person -- the architect who buys the land and draws up the plans to build a Shakey's Pizza and then puts on his work clothes and pours the cement and cuts the lumber and actually builds the store, or the guy who lives next door who read about the shop being built and who gets hungry around noon every day?
God is sovereign in a universe full of independent free will. Doesn't that just make your skin tingle? The fact that He doesn't have to force everything in order to get what He wants? He's better than that.
More breezy sentiment void of Scripture. IF He's God, then NOTHING happens outside His will. Or else He is an unsatisfied, petulant deity who is actually deprived of His desires by the audacity of His own creation.
That just isn't who He says He is.
The point is--we make the decision. We have full freedom to do so. Otherwise, the defense at the Judgement would be that we didn't have a chance. Since God is perfect Justice, that argument will not be allowed to stand (and it would be valid). As a result, He must allow us that free decision.
Okay. IMO here is the crux of the misunderstanding and it is why you have a Roman Catholic like Bainbridge cheering your posts.
When we stand before the throne of judgment Christians will NOT be judged by our own works (although Rome has worked mightily to convince us all of that.)
Instead, thank God, we will stand before God clothed in the blood of Jesus Christ. HIS obedience saves us. HIS righteousness saves us. HIS good work on the cross saves us. All mercifully imputed to us, according to the will and purpose of the God who sent His Son to redeem His children.
This is the true heart of the miracle that Christ performed on our behalf. This is what should give all Christians confidence and trust, and it is this confidence and trust that the temporal world works overtime to obscure and deny.
"Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." -- 1 Thess. 5:24"She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet." -- Proverbs 31:21
And sadly, we are now so wrapped up in glorifying our own good works that there is little difference between Rome and many Protestant churches. But a remnant remains. Join it, God willing.
How does He do that--Titus says that the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men. That allows us the freedom to make the choice.
The second sentence does not result from the first sentence. They're hardly related, let alone causative. The grace of God has "appeared" to all men, and now no man is without excuse. But what sets one man apart from another?
"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing." -- 2 Timothy 4:8
And how do men love God? They love God because He FIRST loved them. We did not choose Him; He choose us.
"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -- Psalm 65:4
The calvinist idea of God's glory is incorrect (Just who is He gonna show His glory to, if we're just objects of it?). If all God wanted was glory, He wouldn't have saved Noah and his family. He would have just started all over again with no one able to resist Him--thus "showing" Lucifer how powerful He is.
So then who do you think God is satisfying, if not Himself? Arminains really do believe they're the center of the universe and God revolves around them.
Read Romans 8 and 9 to learn why God has created thus and so.
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." -- Romans 9:19-26"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Instead, God decided to redeem us. Even with the evil in men's hearts, He still loved us enough to save His creation. This is all about His love for us--not about how powerful He is. He showed His power with Noah. Now He's showing us His love.
And thus that logic results in universalism whereby God actually loves all men and Christ has paid for all men's sins and thus, ALL MEN ARE FORGIVEN. And yet some men still are condemned in their sins. So what does that say about the efficacy of the blood of Christ and the ability to accomplish God's desires by the Holy Spirit?
It says they fail. It says that men can thwart the true will of God. And that's just not Scriptural, logical or even desirable.
Love is not creating beings with no chance to be saved. Love is offering that chance and letting us make that decision.
So love is letting His children jump off a cliff and die, even though He loves them and wants them to come to Him?
That is not love. That's sadistic.
Love is grabbing hold of someone and not letting go. That is Christian love. That is why the world hates it. Because it is so powerful.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." -- John 17:9-10"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
That's Christianity. That's love. That's reality.
Thank God.
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:10
Count on it.
I do believe that knowing something does not cause it to happen. However, I also am certain that knowing something ahead of time means you know how it turns out. Otherwise, the word “know” has no meaning.
“From the foundation of the world” would mean at the same time as everything was created or that it was already in place when creation was happening. There’s no getting around that. Jesus sacrifice was known to be necessary AND established before one living soul was yet on this planet.
The only explanation for that is that God already knew the fall, the prescription, the cure, and the aftermath.
In short, the billions of lives and how they were FREELY lived on the earth was no secret to God PRIOR TO their having done anything.
Yet, The Redeemed were so important to God that despite all the pain, trauma, and turmoil of all history that fell on His Son, Jesus, He created anyway. This truth is everlastingly to His glory.
And thus, Brother ShadowAce, you have both Free Will and Predestination. But, this is biblical: “those He foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son...”
Not exactly.
History is a first run.
It is a 2nd viewing.
Agreed. No argument here. The question we are actually debating is "What is God's Will?" To save what He can, or to let mankind make that decision? I believe that God has multiple desires, and they have priority. The first desire is that all men be saved, but the second (and greater) is that man make that decision himself. This is why we have verses like John 3:16--That whosoever believes.. and that He loves the whole world--not just some.
He loves all of mankind. He wants ALL of us to choose Him. But He wants that choice to be made by us. Otherwise, it's not a choice, and it's not love.
See, right there that makes no sense, in terms of who a sovereign Creator of all existence is. Who is the greater, stronger, more involved person -- the architect who buys the land and draws up the plans to build a Shakey's Pizza and then puts on his work clothes and pours the cement and cuts the lumber and actually builds the store, or the guy who lives next door who read about the shop being built and who gets hungry around noon every day?
That comparison makes not sense to me. It's like saying which is better--apples or division?
Okay. IMO here is the crux of the misunderstanding ...
You're right. Belief is not a work as many describe "works." John 6:28-29 clearly explains that God does require some effort on our part.
And thus that logic results in universalism whereby God actually loves all men ...
Correct.
...and Christ has paid for all men's sins...
Correct.
... and thus, ALL MEN ARE FORGIVEN.
Incorrect. All men ask who accept the sacrifice of the Christ are forgiven.
And yet some men still are condemned in their sins.
Due to their own decision not to accept the sacrifice
So what does that say about the efficacy of the blood of Christ and the ability to accomplish God's desires by the Holy Spirit?
Not a thing. Different discussion altogether.
Love is grabbing hold of someone and not letting go. That is Christian love.
No--that's selfishness. Love is allowing the other to make up their own mind about the relationship.
Any persuasion involves sufficient causation. Choices are not made randomly; they are based on reason and reason, using education, experience, culture etc., weighs causes and usually chooses the sufficient cause.
“The persuasion wasn't that difficult, once Paul realized Who he was talking to.”
Acts 9:3-6, “And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.”
Paul explains this confrontation this way and it all of God's calling, not foreseen choices,
Gal.1:15-16, “But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:”
This echoes the experiences of King David and the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah,
Psa 22:9-10, “But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly.”
Psa 139:13-16, “For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.”
Isa. 49:1,5, “Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.”....”And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him,”
Jer. 1:5, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”
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