You are defining “known about him” differently. You are implying causation. God knows what the perfectly free decision will be. The decision is still ours, and we are perfectly capable of making that decision—either direction.
“You are defining “known about him” differently. You are implying causation.”
No, what I am asking is can a person change his mind and choose differently than what was known before he was born? In other words, can one be said to have chosen freely if his destiny was set by choices he was forseen to have made before he was born?
It seems to me that in your definition of sovereignty, all that is happening now is just a rerun of a movie that was seen in eternity passed and everyone’s destiny has been dertermined before they were born.
There was a time when I would have responded just like you. And I couldn't answer the questions either. That caused me to think about the questions some more.
A limited god can only cause things to happen--a truly sovereign God knows what will happen--without being a cause--and the outcome is still what He wants.
See, right there that makes no sense, in terms of who a sovereign Creator of all existence is. Who is the greater, stronger, more involved person -- the architect who buys the land and draws up the plans to build a Shakey's Pizza and then puts on his work clothes and pours the cement and cuts the lumber and actually builds the store, or the guy who lives next door who read about the shop being built and who gets hungry around noon every day?
God is sovereign in a universe full of independent free will. Doesn't that just make your skin tingle? The fact that He doesn't have to force everything in order to get what He wants? He's better than that.
More breezy sentiment void of Scripture. IF He's God, then NOTHING happens outside His will. Or else He is an unsatisfied, petulant deity who is actually deprived of His desires by the audacity of His own creation.
That just isn't who He says He is.
The point is--we make the decision. We have full freedom to do so. Otherwise, the defense at the Judgement would be that we didn't have a chance. Since God is perfect Justice, that argument will not be allowed to stand (and it would be valid). As a result, He must allow us that free decision.
Okay. IMO here is the crux of the misunderstanding and it is why you have a Roman Catholic like Bainbridge cheering your posts.
When we stand before the throne of judgment Christians will NOT be judged by our own works (although Rome has worked mightily to convince us all of that.)
Instead, thank God, we will stand before God clothed in the blood of Jesus Christ. HIS obedience saves us. HIS righteousness saves us. HIS good work on the cross saves us. All mercifully imputed to us, according to the will and purpose of the God who sent His Son to redeem His children.
This is the true heart of the miracle that Christ performed on our behalf. This is what should give all Christians confidence and trust, and it is this confidence and trust that the temporal world works overtime to obscure and deny.
"Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it." -- 1 Thess. 5:24"She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet." -- Proverbs 31:21
And sadly, we are now so wrapped up in glorifying our own good works that there is little difference between Rome and many Protestant churches. But a remnant remains. Join it, God willing.
How does He do that--Titus says that the grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men. That allows us the freedom to make the choice.
The second sentence does not result from the first sentence. They're hardly related, let alone causative. The grace of God has "appeared" to all men, and now no man is without excuse. But what sets one man apart from another?
"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing." -- 2 Timothy 4:8
And how do men love God? They love God because He FIRST loved them. We did not choose Him; He choose us.
"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee" -- Psalm 65:4
The calvinist idea of God's glory is incorrect (Just who is He gonna show His glory to, if we're just objects of it?). If all God wanted was glory, He wouldn't have saved Noah and his family. He would have just started all over again with no one able to resist Him--thus "showing" Lucifer how powerful He is.
So then who do you think God is satisfying, if not Himself? Arminains really do believe they're the center of the universe and God revolves around them.
Read Romans 8 and 9 to learn why God has created thus and so.
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." -- Romans 9:19-26"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Instead, God decided to redeem us. Even with the evil in men's hearts, He still loved us enough to save His creation. This is all about His love for us--not about how powerful He is. He showed His power with Noah. Now He's showing us His love.
And thus that logic results in universalism whereby God actually loves all men and Christ has paid for all men's sins and thus, ALL MEN ARE FORGIVEN. And yet some men still are condemned in their sins. So what does that say about the efficacy of the blood of Christ and the ability to accomplish God's desires by the Holy Spirit?
It says they fail. It says that men can thwart the true will of God. And that's just not Scriptural, logical or even desirable.
Love is not creating beings with no chance to be saved. Love is offering that chance and letting us make that decision.
So love is letting His children jump off a cliff and die, even though He loves them and wants them to come to Him?
That is not love. That's sadistic.
Love is grabbing hold of someone and not letting go. That is Christian love. That is why the world hates it. Because it is so powerful.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." -- John 17:9-10"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
That's Christianity. That's love. That's reality.
Thank God.
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:10
Count on it.