Posted on 02/23/2010 7:22:52 AM PST by Pyro7480
I. Ordained Leaders Share in Jesus' Ministry and Authority
Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world....
Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).
Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, "he who hears you, hears Me." When we hear the bishops' teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself....
II. Authority is Transferred by the Sacrament of Ordination
...Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.
Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown....
III. Jesus Wants Us to Obey Apostolic Authority
Acts 5:13 - the people acknowledged the apostles' special authority and did not dare take it upon themselves.
Acts 15:6,24; 16:4 - the teaching authority is granted to the apostles and their successors. This teaching authority must be traced to the original apostles, or the authority is not sanctioned by Christ....
Num. 16:1-35 - Korah incited a "protestant" rebellion against God's chosen Moses in an effort to confuse the distinction between the ministerial and universal offices of priesthood, and Korah and his followers perished. (This effort to blind the distinctions between the priests and the laity is still pursued by dissidents today.)
(Excerpt) Read more at scripturecatholic.com ...
Catholic ping!
“More scriptural support of the Catholic position.”
You can keep believing that and we will keep believing you are wrong. Rome assumed primacy due to Constantine.
From the same website:
"Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Mast High God the Father, and of Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is sanctified and enlightened by the will of God, who farmed all things that are according to the faith and love of Jesus Christ, our God and Saviour; the Church which presides in the place of the region of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love..." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, Prologue (A.D. 110).
"There is extant also another epistle written by Dionysius to the Romans, and addressed to Soter, who was bishop at that time. We cannot do better than to subjoin some passages from this epistle…In this same epistle he makes mention also of Clement's epistle to the Corinthians, showing that it had been the custom from the beginning to read it in the church. His words are as follows: To-day we have passed the Lord's holy day, in which we have read your epistle. From it, whenever we read it, we shall always be able to draw advice, as also from the former epistle, which was written to us through Clement.' Dionysius of Corinth, To Pope Soter (A.D. 171).
"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:3:2 (A.D. 180).
BTTT
apostles; bishops; catholic; scripture;
Christian, Protestant, Seventh day Adventist here.......in that order.
“History doesn’t support you.”
Scripture does.
I’m frankly not at all surprised that a website dedicated to proving Catholics right has quotes that may be used to do so.
There’s no just basis for claims to an Apostolic Succession from Peter when Peter didn’t believe it himself and was not considered the leader of the Apostles the New Testement.
Jesus is the Rock the Church - as in the body of believers, not some political structure - is built upon.
Save your ammunition for non-Christians. Quit trying to pick fights with people you should consider your brothers in Christ.
If you're going rebuke me, will you rebuke your fellow travelers for doing the same?
“More scriptural support of the Catholic position”
Here are some scriptural exceptions to your Apostolic Succession rule:
Jesus gave a major exception during his ministry;
Luk 9:49-50, And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.
The Jewish Christians during the dispersion after Stephen’s death;
Act 8:2-4 And devout men carried Stephen [to his burial], and made great lamentation over him. As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed [them] to prison. Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
Paul, separated by God from the womb;
Gal 1:14-19, And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called [me] by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.
Teachers and prophets at Antioch;
Act 13:1-3, Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid [their] hands on them, they sent [them] away.
Apollos, Aquila and Priscilla;
Act 18:24 -28, And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
“If you’re going rebuke me, will you rebuke your fellow travelers for doing the same?”
Certainly.... along with every Catholic who feels as you do.
It takes two to argue, Pyro.
We have our reasons for not belonging to your denomination.
If you only knew...
Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).
Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles....
And it's an act of charity to lead you back.
“If you only knew...”
Catholic presumption at its worst. “If only you knew”... It wasn’t that long ago when Catholics were not encouraged to read the Bible. You were to be told what it said.
In Acts, Peter tells a man to “”Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” (Acts 10:26)... certainly no bowing down and ring kissing there....
The Rock in Matthew is not Peter himself, but Peter’s confession that Jesus is the Son of God. In Galatians, Paul rebukes Peter for errancy... so, Paul certainly didn’t recognize Peter as the “Vicar of Christ”.
“And it’s an act of charity to lead you back.”
Leading me to what? Your political organization?
No.
My Faith informs me and I can read the Bible for myself.
The Church isn’t a “political organization.” It’s One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. And “your own personal interpretation of Scripture” was the first major step in the egalitarian revolution that is destroying Western civilization.
“The Church isn’t a “political organization.” It’s One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. “
The Roman Catholic Church is a political organization. The Church, on the other hand, is the entire body of believers.
“And “your own personal interpretation of Scripture” was the first major step in the egalitarian revolution that is destroying Western civilization.”
Nice to see how you view the American Revolution. That egalitarian revolution, as you call it, gave us the highpoint of Western Civilization. That isn’t what is destroying it.
The American Revolution is its own "animal." I'm more referring to how the Protestant "Reformation" led right into the so-called Enlightenment and its barbaric child, the French Revolution and all the parallel revolutions it inspired throughout Europe and the world, which further de-Christianized the West and those under its tutelege. This paved for the way for communism and socialism, and in the cultural area, the current sexual/secular/relativistic revolution.
“The American Revolution is its own “animal.” I’m more referring to how the Protestant “Reformation” led right into the so-called Enlightenment and its barbaric child, the French Revolution and all the parallel revolutions it inspired throughout Europe and the world, which further de-Christianized the West and those under its tutelege.”
The American Revolution was a child of the Enlightenment. We just had sane leadership.
You, perhaps, preferred the Divine Right of Kings?
Said another way:
France was Catholic.
England was Protestant.
Our culture came from England. Our Revolution reflected that fact.
Well said.
Of course the Apostles had authority, but the rub is how Catholics define things (like what a saint is).
There are no verses which say anything along the lines of “The authority and power that Peter has, is limited to Peter, until such time as Peter dies and other people vote on who to give that special power to.” In other words, nothing on Succession.
What you do find in the New Testament is that the Power of the Apostles came from Christ through their faith. After Jesus assended into Heaven he left us (all who believe in faith in Jesus) the power of the Holy Spirit.
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