Posted on 02/22/2010 9:47:13 PM PST by restornu
Since ancient scribes were so totally accurate in their work, how could any mistakes ever enter into the Bible?
There is a myth among some circles that ancient scribes were so incredibly cautious, making sure that every letter was perfectly copied, that they never produced any mistakes when copying the manuscripts, and thus all ancient manuscripts agree with each other.
This is entirely bogus - a deceptive lie or statement of shear stupidity. The great Hebrew scholar,
Emmanuel Tov, for example, has discussed numerous scribal problems in Hebrew manuscripts.
In a 1994 lecture entitled "The Hebrew Bible and the Dead Sea Scrolls," Dr. Tov explains what we learned about ancient scribes and Hebrew manuscripts with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls:
Let me explain the importance of having discovered these documents from a very early period relating to the Hebrew Bible.
Before these discoveries were made in 1947, the earliest sources for the Hebrew Bible were the texts found in the Cairo Geniza.
The Geniza is a storeroom in which discarded writings considered to be holy or that contained the name of God were placed [when they were worn out].
The earliest of these document are from the eighth century of the Common Era [A.D.].
Until 1947 we had no ancient records in Hebrew of the Hebrew Bible.
You might say we had no really good evidence of what the Hebrew Bible looked like, until the discoveries of Qumran.
It turns out that our knowledge was rather good, but we had no evidence in our hands.
So, the first time that we were able to see what an ancient Hebrew Bible looked like was after these documents were found near the Dead Sea.
We now know what is meant by a copy of the Hebrew Bible from early periods.
We now know that the text was written in a scroll, and when we say scroll, we really mean something which was rolled.
We mean that these were sheets of leather sewn to each other or glued to each other, on each of which you could have a number of columns of writing.
Each column is what we would probably call a page, and so normally you'd have three or four columns on each sheet, with a fixed number of lines.
We now see what the text looked like.
We see that there are scribes who wrote well, and we see that there are scribes who were rather sloppy.
One of the scribes was a terrible scribe, the scribe who wrote the Isaiah scroll.
When I say terrible, I mean terrible.
This is a scribe who made a mistake in every second, third, or fourth -- well, let's say every fifth word.
Already the second word of that scroll has a mistake.
It starts with the vision of Isaiah, and in that word Yisha'yahu the third letter, the 'ayin, he simply forgot, because this is a guttural letter, which he (like I) did not pronounce, so he just wrote yod shin yod hay vav and then afterwards when he realized what he did, he, or a reader, put the 'ayin above the line.
Mistakes in guttural letters in that scroll abound. Words are omitted.
Words are added.
Words are added in the margin.
This is sloppy handwriting.
We simply must remember that this is a human scribe of blood and flesh who wrote this scroll and hence produced a product which, in his case, was not a good product.
(Emmanuel Tov, "The Hebrew Bible and the Dead Sea Scrolls," Seventh Annual F.A.R.M.S. Lecture, Feb. 20, 1994, Document TOV-94, Provo, Utah: FARMS, 1994, pp. 6-7; see also Emmanuel Tov, Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, 2nd edition, Fortress Press, 2001)
It's not just that some scribes were sloppy.
They were condemned as a class by the Lord for their unrighteousness ("Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!" in Matt. 23:39).
Evidence supports the idea that changes were deliberately made due to their religious bias.
Some early Christians reported that Hebrew scriptures had been changed to take out some clear prophecies of Christ, which was an entirely logical but corrupt response from those who kept the manuscripts and hated Christianity.
One thing is clear: there are numerous variants between the different ancient texts, both in Greek and Hebrew.
While the manuscripts agree with each other in many ways, there are thousands of differences due to the vagaries of human activity.
Scribes were imperfect.
They were not infallible.
Their products cannot possibly be considered infallible, perfect and complete.
One can ignore the abundant evidence, but it's time to recognize that only God is the final and perfect authority, and that's why we need continuing revelation from his authorized prophets and apostles.
The Bible is scripture and needs to be studied with faith, but also with a recognition that it is a book printed by humans, translated by humans, copied by humans, and even originally written by inspired humans, none of whom were infallible. Mistakes happen. Errors creep in.
Translations create unintended meanings. This is mortality, and these kind of things happen.
Thank goodness there is a mechanism to overcome these problems when it's critical, and that mechanism is continuing revelation, which was meant to be an integral part of the Church of Jesus Christ from the beginning, and which has been restored in our day.
Well; when SOMEone posts a thread that is DIVISIVE by it's very nature, in an ECUMENICAL area, what would a rational person exPECT to happen to it?
What are the top things that interfere with you attending the temple regularly? (Select up to 5 choices)
Total Voters: 372
I wonder which two visited Joseph Smith?
If some clergy did not corrupt the scriptures how do you think they were able to have the Lord Crucified?
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Resty are you suggesting that Jesus was not suppose to be crucified...
and only a typo or clerical error in the scriptures lead to His death ???
Are you suggesting that the prophecies in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible that foretold of His coming, and death on the Cross were all wrong ???
The pulled thread sounded much the same as this one. And most of the same people were doing the disrupting. It makes no difference what the posted article is about. If it has anything whatsoever to do with LDS, the same people show up to disrupt the thread, deliberately preventing any meaningful discussion from taking place, and repeating the same rude comments they’ve made on every other LDS-related thread. They’re no better than the leftist mobs that try to silence conservatives on college campuses by stealing newspapers, tearing down signs, and shouting down invited speakers — and that sort of tactic shouldn’t be tolerated on FR.
If some clergy did not corrupt the scriptures how do you think they were able to have the Lord Crucified?
It was a conspiracy we can read a little of it in the NT and between the lines of what was not said!
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Only a conspiracy ???
Or part of the divine plan of the God of the Christian Bible to save the world from spiritual death ???
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
Leave the thread.
Redirecting the thread to a discussion of RF guidelines or making the thread "about" individual Freepers also disrupts the thread.
A scorched earth policy is the deliberate burning, destruction, and removal by an army of everything that would be useful to an enemy coming into the area.
Of course God knew this would happen and the world needed a Savior and like the fall of Adam so man might have joy and choose whom he will follow
1 Cor. 15: 45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
In order to crucify the Lord His word has to be turn against Him!
The fact that Jesus was confronted by the Scribes and Pharisees commen sense tells one that they recented Jesus
because he knew what they did to His word.
So it seems there is no such a thing in a temporal world is inherent and infallible scriptures!
Matt 23
13 ¶ But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Okay...
But that's what many of the disruptors' posts are about, as well as your on-thread responses to some of those posts. When you get involved in on-thread debates about the posting rules, it signals the disruptors that it's okay for them to do the same. Just delete their inappropriate posts and let them figure out what doesn't stay up. You've already been alerted to the problems on this thread, and yet dozens of inappropriate posts remain -- sending you a FReepmail about each and every one would be absurd.
They are baiting you into these on-thread debates as part of their concerted effort to disrupt these threads. In your post #73, you actually encouraged them to post on the thread: "If you wish to direct those on your side of the debate away from a thread like this, then come up with a non-antagonistic redirect and ping your FRiends, e.g. "I wholly disagree with the article and cannot reply without it being taken as antagonistic, therefore let's reconvene on an open thread and show the other side of the story." " Look at the FOUR posts that immediately followed that.
Why the heck should that sort of thing be posted *on-thread*, even once, never mind over and over again, and in a rhetorical manner lacking any link to an alternative thread? They certainly know who their fellow disruptors are -- why shouldn't they handle suggestions like this via FReepmail, instead of littering the thread with them?
Also, it appears to me that you don't get reached by the "Report Abuse" button -- Religion Forum threads should have that button directed to the Religion Moderator so that inappropriate posts can be flagged and deleted efficiently.
Resty I dont feel that my questions in # 147 were addressed in # 150
I’m sure the moderator appreciates your advice.
Looks like the comments on the thread pull you reference were made by a moderator sympathetic to the lds and disapproving of dissent. Ones that I find highly objectionable. Moderators are to remain neutral and maintain decorum. That moderator did neither.
Resty, when you start anwering questions posed to you regarding lds doctrine, then there is a very strong likelihood that the threads will take the tone you claim to be so desperately seeking. One of respectable debate and discussion.
When you refuse to address the questions by calling those who question lds doctrine “Progressives” and other names, what tone do you expect?
Just some observations of mine.
You shouldn’t “feel” that they weren’t, they flat were not.
I’m glad you mentioned it, I was going to, but got called away for a bit.
By owning the comment as my “feelings” I avoid an accusation of antagonism
THIS is an example of an "ecumenical" post????
And is left standing while others are deleted?
Has the title of this thread been altered because I'm just not seeing this on the link provided.
While scrolling through the link I found antagonistic articles to that are contrary to Bible believing Christians, and therefore the ecumenic tag should be removed IMO in order that we can address the errors found there as well as contend for our faith.
This thread has garnered more division than ecumenical responses. Perhaps that is the reason - because the articles found at the link are divisive.
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