[Salvation]

Finishing the section on Christ -- Apostles -- establishment of the Church.

[highlander_UW]

Let me pose a couple of questions for you.

Would you argue that all it takes to be a Christian is membership in a church/denomination?

If so, how do you arrive at that Biblically?

If not, then you would agree that any given church (regardless of rather it's catholic or any other) will have attendees mixed between "real" Christians (sheep) and false Christians (goats).

So does that church then lose it's standing as part of the "church" (body of Christ)? Or is the "church" wherever there are true believers regardless of the presence of others who are not?

If you agree with that, then I submit that the "church" is anywhere there are true Christians, regardless of affiliation. Paul wrote to the church in this location or that location...but it was one church, and the connecting cord was not a denomination but a shared relationship with the Father through Christ Jesus.

I submit that wherever there are 2 or more true Christians there is a "church", and that happens all over the world and it happens in catholic churches, in lutheran church, in independent churches, in non-denominational churches.

What makes one part of the "church" is Jesus, not a structure, physical or political.

[Salvation]

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[LiteKeeper]

These verses do not demonstrate that God instituted “one church” if by that it is meant the Roman Catholic Church.

[Salvavida]

The RCC takes Matt 16:18 out of its context, and makes a false doctrine out of it. That was NOT the question Jesus was asking, nor was it the context of Peter’s answer. Read the whole exchange.

Truth is not what we want it to be (by twisting Scripture): it is what it is.

[narses]

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[Bobsvainbabblings]

Salvation, all these scriptures have nothing to do with the establishment an earthly church as fashioned by the RCC.

Christ instituted only one church, and that society was both formally and specifically a visible one.

Mt 16:18

"... upon this rock I will build my church" (Both "this rock" and "my church" are clearly singular in the Greek text.)

Jesus asked them who they thought He was. Peter responded: "You are the Christ (the anointed one of God), the son of the living God."   ¹⁷ Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. ¹⁸ And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. ¹⁹ And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed^[d] in heaven.”

²⁰ Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

Jesus being the Christ and the Son of God is fundamental for God to have the New Testament Church and all that comes with it. He is the rock His Church is built on as Peter states the first time he speaks after being filled with the Holy Spirit after Pentecost.

⁸ Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: ⁹ If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, ¹⁰ let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. ¹¹ This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’^{[a] 12} Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Jn 10:16

I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.

There is one flock and one Shepherd. Believers make up that flock and Jesus is the shepherd.

Jn 17:20-21

"I pray not only for them (the Apostles), but also for those who will believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me."

 

(The apostles) is not part of the verse. Even if it was, Jesus says He is not only praying for them but all who believe through their word.

 

Jn 21:15-17

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."

 

We are all to feed His Sheep. Asking him three times if he loves Him doesn't make Peter anymore important than us who love Him.

 

 

Mt 28: 19

"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit"

That is a command given to all believers for all time.

Mk 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. It is a statement of truth.

The Catholic Church and it's dogmas are based on a small number of scriptures taken out of context just like the ones above.

The claim that Jesus established an earthly church to be administered by the apostils and handed down to their successors is just that, a claim with no bases in truth. The apostils were not given any gifts, commands or responsibilities that are not given to all believers.

Most people believe that Christ's Church started at Pentecost with the gift of the Holy Spirit. There were 120 men and women disciples in the room at the time. Only 11 were apostles. They received the same Spirit as the other 109.  

I have made this point in previous posts with no response about how God was not shy about how he wanted the Old Testament/Covenant earthly tabernacle built, outfitted and the priesthood which manned it and their duties. Start reading about Exodus 20:22 and continue on through Leviticus to Numbers 19 for a reminder. It is a little more than changing a person's name.

An excerpt at EX 29 describing an earthly priest and his duties.

 

Aaron and His Sons Consecrated

 ¹ “And this is what you shall do to them to hallow them for ministering to Me as priests: Take one young bull and two rams without blemish, ² and unleavened bread, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers anointed with oil (you shall make them of wheat flour). ³ You shall put them in one basket and bring them in the basket, with the bull and the two rams.
⁴ “And Aaron and his sons you shall bring to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and you shall wash them with water. ⁵ Then you shall take the garments, put the tunic on Aaron, and the robe of the ephod, the ephod, and the breastplate, and gird him with the intricately woven band of the ephod. ⁶ You shall put the turban on his head, and put the holy crown on the turban. ⁷ And you shall take the anointing oil, pour it on his head, and anoint him. ⁸ Then you shall bring his sons and put tunics on them. ⁹ And you shall gird them with sashes, Aaron and his sons, and put the hats on them. The priesthood shall be theirs for a perpetual statute. So you shall consecrate Aaron and his sons.
¹⁰ “You shall also have the bull brought before the tabernacle of meeting, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the bull. ¹¹ Then you shall kill the bull before the LORD, by the door of the tabernacle of meeting. ¹² You shall take some of the blood of the bull and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and pour all the blood beside the base of the altar. ¹³ And you shall take all the fat that covers the entrails, the fatty lobe attached to the liver, and the two kidneys and the fat that is on them, and burn them on the altar. ¹⁴ But the flesh of the bull, with its skin and its offal, you shall burn with fire outside the camp. It is a sin offering.
¹⁵ “You shall also take one ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram; ¹⁶ and you shall kill the ram, and you shall take its blood and sprinkle it all around on the altar. ¹⁷ Then you shall cut the ram in pieces, wash its entrails and its legs, and put them with its pieces and with its head. ¹⁸ And you shall burn the whole ram on the altar. It is a burnt offering to the LORD; it is a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD.
¹⁹ “You shall also take the other ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram. ²⁰ Then you shall kill the ram, and take some of its blood and put it on the tip of the right ear of Aaron and on the tip of the right ear of his sons, on the thumb of their right hand and on the big toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood all around on the altar. ²¹ And you shall take some of the blood that is on the altar, and some of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it on Aaron and on his garments, on his sons and on the garments of his sons with him; and he and his garments shall be hallowed, and his sons and his sons’ garments with him.
²² “Also you shall take the fat of the ram, the fat tail, the fat that covers the entrails, the fatty lobe attached to the liver, the two kidneys and the fat on them, the right thigh (for it is a ram of consecration), ²³ one loaf of bread, one cake made with oil, and one wafer from the basket of the unleavened bread that is before the LORD; ²⁴ and you shall put all these in the hands of Aaron and in the hands of his sons, and you shall wave them as a wave offering before the LORD. ²⁵ You shall receive them back from their hands and burn them on the altar as a burnt offering, as a sweet aroma before the LORD. It is an offering made by fire to the LORD.
²⁶ “Then you shall take the breast of the ram of Aaron’s consecration and wave it as a wave offering before the LORD; and it shall be your portion. ²⁷ And from the ram of the consecration you shall consecrate the breast of the wave offering which is waved, and the thigh of the heave offering which is raised, of that which is for Aaron and of that which is for his sons. ²⁸ It shall be from the children of Israel for Aaron and his sons by a statute forever. For it is a heave offering; it shall be a heave offering from the children of Israel from the sacrifices of their peace offerings, that is, their heave offering to the LORD.
²⁹ “And the holy garments of Aaron shall be his sons’ after him, to be anointed in them and to be consecrated in them. ³⁰ That son who becomes priest in his place shall put them on for seven days, when he enters the tabernacle of meeting to minister in the holy place.
³¹ “And you shall take the ram of the consecration and boil its flesh in the holy place. ³² Then Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of meeting. ³³ They shall eat those things with which the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them; but an outsider shall not eat them, because they are holy. ³⁴ And if any of the flesh of the consecration offerings, or of the bread, remains until the morning, then you shall burn the remainder with fire. It shall not be eaten, because it is holy.
³⁵ “Thus you shall do to Aaron and his sons, according to all that I have commanded you. Seven days you shall consecrate them. ³⁶ And you shall offer a bull every day as a sin offering for atonement. You shall cleanse the altar when you make atonement for it, and you shall anoint it to sanctify it. ³⁷ Seven days you shall make atonement for the altar and sanctify it. And the altar shall be most holy. Whatever touches the altar must be holy.^[a]

The Daily Offerings

   
³⁸ “Now this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs of the first year, day by day continually. ³⁹ One lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight. ⁴⁰ With the one lamb shall be one-tenth of an ephah of flour mixed with one-fourth of a hin of pressed oil, and one-fourth of a hin of wine as a drink offering. ⁴¹ And the other lamb you shall offer at twilight; and you shall offer with it the grain offering and the drink offering, as in the morning, for a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD. ⁴² This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD, where I will meet you to speak with you. ⁴³ And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by My glory. ⁴⁴ So I will consecrate the tabernacle of meeting and the altar. I will also consecrate both Aaron and his sons to minister to Me as priests. ⁴⁵ I will dwell among the children of Israel and will be their God. ⁴⁶ And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, who brought them up out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them. I am the LORD their God.

After seeing God's penchant for detail, could you please show me where He defines an earthly priesthood and the duties He has given those priests for the New Testament/Covenant. His instructions for how a Mass is carried out would be interesting to read.

The only Priest for the New Covenant I can find is Christ and He is in heaven as described in Hebrews. Especially 7-8-9-10. You will also read how the earthly priesthood is no longer needed because there is no need for sacrifices.

Maybe that is why He told us; "Seek yea first the kingdom of heaven." and gave Peter and us the keys to the kingdom of heaven and not an earthly building.

BVB

 

The Catholic Church and it's dogmas are based on a small number of scriptures taken out of context just like the ones above.

The claim that Jesus established an earthly church to be administered by the apostils and handed down to their successors is just that, a claim with no bases in truth. The apostils were not given any gifts, commands or responsibilities that are not given to all believers.

Most people believe that Christ's Church started at Pentecost with the gift of the Holy Spirit. There were 120 men and women disciples in the room at the time. Only 11 were apostles. They received the same Spirit as the other 109.  

I have made this point in previous posts with no response about how God was not shy about how he wanted the Old Testament/Covenant earthly tabernacle built, outfitted and the priesthood which manned it and their duties. Start reading about Exodus 20:22 and continue on through Leviticus to Numbers 19 for a reminder. It is a little more than changing a person's name.

An excerpt at EX 29 describing an earthly priest and his duties.

 

Aaron and His Sons Consecrated

 ¹ “And this is what you shall do to them to hallow them for ministering to Me as priests: Take one young bull and two rams without blemish, ² and unleavened bread, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers anointed with oil (you shall make them of wheat flour). ³ You shall put them in one basket and bring them in the basket, with the bull and the two rams.
⁴ “And Aaron and his sons you shall bring to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and you shall wash them with water. ⁵ Then you shall take the garments, put the tunic on Aaron, and the robe of the ephod, the ephod, and the breastplate, and gird him with the intricately woven band of the ephod. ⁶ You shall put the turban on his head, and put the holy crown on the turban. ⁷ And you shall take the anointing oil, pour it on his head, and anoint him. ⁸ Then you shall bring his sons and put tunics on them. ⁹ And you shall gird them with sashes, Aaron and his sons, and put the hats on them. The priesthood shall be theirs for a perpetual statute. So you shall consecrate Aaron and his sons.
¹⁰ “You shall also have the bull brought before the tabernacle of meeting, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the bull. ¹¹ Then you shall kill the bull before the LORD, by the door of the tabernacle of meeting. ¹² You shall take some of the blood of the bull and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and pour all the blood beside the base of the altar. ¹³ And you shall take all the fat that covers the entrails, the fatty lobe attached to the liver, and the two kidneys and the fat that is on them, and burn them on the altar. ¹⁴ But the flesh of the bull, with its skin and its offal, you shall burn with fire outside the camp. It is a sin offering.
¹⁵ “You shall also take one ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram; ¹⁶ and you shall kill the ram, and you shall take its blood and sprinkle it all around on the altar. ¹⁷ Then you shall cut the ram in pieces, wash its entrails and its legs, and put them with its pieces and with its head. ¹⁸ And you shall burn the whole ram on the altar. It is a burnt offering to the LORD; it is a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD.
¹⁹ “You shall also take the other ram, and Aaron and his sons shall put their hands on the head of the ram. ²⁰ Then you shall kill the ram, and take some of its blood and put it on the tip of the right ear of Aaron and on the tip of the right ear of his sons, on the thumb of their right hand and on the big toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood all around on the altar. ²¹ And you shall take some of the blood that is on the altar, and some of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it on Aaron and on his garments, on his sons and on the garments of his sons with him; and he and his garments shall be hallowed, and his sons and his sons’ garments with him.
²² “Also you shall take the fat of the ram, the fat tail, the fat that covers the entrails, the fatty lobe attached to the liver, the two kidneys and the fat on them, the right thigh (for it is a ram of consecration), ²³ one loaf of bread, one cake made with oil, and one wafer from the basket of the unleavened bread that is before the LORD; ²⁴ and you shall put all these in the hands of Aaron and in the hands of his sons, and you shall wave them as a wave offering before the LORD. ²⁵ You shall receive them back from their hands and burn them on the altar as a burnt offering, as a sweet aroma before the LORD. It is an offering made by fire to the LORD.
²⁶ “Then you shall take the breast of the ram of Aaron’s consecration and wave it as a wave offering before the LORD; and it shall be your portion. ²⁷ And from the ram of the consecration you shall consecrate the breast of the wave offering which is waved, and the thigh of the heave offering which is raised, of that which is for Aaron and of that which is for his sons. ²⁸ It shall be from the children of Israel for Aaron and his sons by a statute forever. For it is a heave offering; it shall be a heave offering from the children of Israel from the sacrifices of their peace offerings, that is, their heave offering to the LORD.
²⁹ “And the holy garments of Aaron shall be his sons’ after him, to be anointed in them and to be consecrated in them. ³⁰ That son who becomes priest in his place shall put them on for seven days, when he enters the tabernacle of meeting to minister in the holy place.
³¹ “And you shall take the ram of the consecration and boil its flesh in the holy place. ³² Then Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of meeting. ³³ They shall eat those things with which the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them; but an outsider shall not eat them, because they are holy. ³⁴ And if any of the flesh of the consecration offerings, or of the bread, remains until the morning, then you shall burn the remainder with fire. It shall not be eaten, because it is holy.
³⁵ “Thus you shall do to Aaron and his sons, according to all that I have commanded you. Seven days you shall consecrate them. ³⁶ And you shall offer a bull every day as a sin offering for atonement. You shall cleanse the altar when you make atonement for it, and you shall anoint it to sanctify it. ³⁷ Seven days you shall make atonement for the altar and sanctify it. And the altar shall be most holy. Whatever touches the altar must be holy.^[a]

The Daily Offerings

   
³⁸ “Now this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs of the first year, day by day continually. ³⁹ One lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight. ⁴⁰ With the one lamb shall be one-tenth of an ephah of flour mixed with one-fourth of a hin of pressed oil, and one-fourth of a hin of wine as a drink offering. ⁴¹ And the other lamb you shall offer at twilight; and you shall offer with it the grain offering and the drink offering, as in the morning, for a sweet aroma, an offering made by fire to the LORD. ⁴² This shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD, where I will meet you to speak with you. ⁴³ And there I will meet with the children of Israel, and the tabernacle shall be sanctified by My glory. ⁴⁴ So I will consecrate the tabernacle of meeting and the altar. I will also consecrate both Aaron and his sons to minister to Me as priests. ⁴⁵ I will dwell among the children of Israel and will be their God. ⁴⁶ And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, who brought them up out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them. I am the LORD their God.

After seeing God's penchant for detail, could you please show me where He defines an earthly priesthood and the duties He has given those priests for the New Testament/Covenant. His instructions for how a Mass is carried out would be interesting to read.

The only Priest for the New Covenant I can find is Christ and He is in heaven as described in Hebrews. Especially 7-8-9-10. You will also read how the earthly priesthood is no longer needed because there is no need for sacrifices.

Maybe that is why He told us; "Seek yea first the kingdom of heaven." and gave Peter and us the keys to the kingdom of heaven and not an earthly building.

BVB