Posted on 02/14/2010 6:38:08 AM PST by NYer
So Protestants and Catholics may not agree on which books should be in the Bible. And we don’t agree on which translations are best. But at least we can always agree on the Ten Commandments, right? Well, not exactly.
We agree on the scripture passages that the ten commandments come from (Deut 5 and Exodus 20). But scripture doesn’t enumerate them for us and break them into 10 nice, neat “commandments.” Because of this, there have been a number of different variations of the ten commandments as we know them today. The Jewish, Catholic, and Protestant versions are very close, but all differ in some way. So don’t be confused when you find out your protestant friend’s 4th commandment is different than your 4th commandment.
The main differences between the Jewish, Protestant and Catholic enumerations occur in how the 1st and 2nd and the 9th and 10th commandments are divvied up. Here’s how they break down:
Jewish Version
1. I am the Lord your God who brought you out of slavery in Egypt.
2. You shall have no other gods but me.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
4. You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
5. Honor your father and mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10. You shall not covet.
The Jews called this the Decalogue (“ten words”) or the “ten sayings.” Which makes sense because they aren’t all commandments. The first one is just a statement - not a commandment.
Then Christianity enumerated them in a way that made them all commandments and put more emphasis on the dignity of the human person and the sanctity of marriage by distinguishing between coveting your neighbors wife and coveting your neighbors stuff. I like the change, myself.
Catholic (Traditional Christian) Version
1. I am the Lord your God: You shall not have strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
4. Honor your father and mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.
Then the Protestants came along over a thousand years later and protested that the Catholic Church worshiped graven images - which of course is not true at all. So they changed the enumeration accordingly.
Protestant Version
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy.
5. Honor thy father and thy mother.
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness.
10. Thou shalt not covet.
If you compare these lists to the places in scripture they are pulled from, it’s easy to see where they came from. However, it’s important to remember that the enumeration of these commandments is not scripture itself. It is tradition. And it’s not dogmatic for Catholics either. What is important is the truth that they speak. Breaking them up and summarizing them like this is just a tool to help us understand it all better. But it’s good to be aware of the differences.
“The moment JUST ONE Catholic divorces or is gay or fails to use contraception YOUR ENTIRE argument fails.”
Why? You think I said no Catholic ever sins?
My point was about numbering the commandments.
People will jump through hoops and argue the number of the commandments, but think little of coveting the wealth of another, or the lustful look at someone elses spouse.
It is interesting how when we generalize we get ever so close to that bearing false witness thing. Guilt by affiliation?
It's not the order that's the issue...It's the content...
Deu 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
The Catholics teach each other that this clear Commandment doesn't belong in the bunch...
And as a result, you see graven images of the Catholic religion all over the planet...
And here's the rest of the Commandment:
Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
And so we have Catholics thru out the universe bowing to the statues and apparently serving them even as far as popes bowing and praying to these idols...
But look at the verse...Now we can thank Jesus that we are under Grace, that He has paid the price for our sins but look at what the verse says...
for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Deu 5:10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
God says that those who make and bow to these statues 'hate' Him...And He gives them no mercy...
I wouldn't build or bow to a statue of Mary if my life depended on it...
And many Protestants did not bow to Mary, or that pope when their lives did depend on it...
Are you trying to get us to remind you the the queer priests you send thru your seminaries and then have to shuffle them around the world to keep them out of prison for molesting and recruiting all those altar boys???
You want to pick a failure of the system, you'd better clean up your own back yard first...
You made a generalization of Protestants, that they gave up the traditions of not condoning being gay, or women priests or divorce, etc. And yet the majority of "Protestant" denominations hold to these. The majority of Christians who would consider themselves Protestant "try" to hold to the tenets of the Bible.
your comment: ” And if there is a disagreement between scripture and our tradition, we ditch the tradition.”
Like the way many Protestants have ditched that whole gay thing? (Page Vickie Eugene Robinson.) Or that Divorce thing? How about that women preaching thing? Contraception? Hmmmm."
Just as you threw out the name of Vicki Robinson and pointed the finger at Protestants, I threw out the name of Ted Kennedy and pointed back at Catholics.
We can sit here and make accusations of one group or the other. We can get all holier than thou. We can point fingers all we want.
What does it accomplish? Does it unite us in Christ or divide us into sectarianism? Do we humbly serve each other? Or do we puff ourselves up and gloat?
We violate them all the time...That's the ongoing battle with evil...
But yes, we may become cast off, not to be confused with loss of salvation...
See my post #23
You do know that there are two different sets of 10 commandments too, exodus 20 and exodus 34 (the first set)?
Well said.
LOL, Ted Kennedy is NOT and never was ordained by the Church. Robinson was. Get it?
Well, I've tried to be civil, and you seem not to get it, so I'll cop YOUR attitude.
If you want to get all uppity, lets look at the little problem the Catholic church seems to have with their ORDAINED priests. Catholics (or at least JUST YOU) don't seem to have a problem with priests having a little fondling time with little boys. You're all about high and mighty when it comes to a "Protestant" "ordained" minister. You make accusations against all Protestants simply from 1 person you mentioned, or even the many who follow suite. So I guess if you're OK dispariging all Protestants for the actions of the few, then I guess you'd have no problem with ALL Catholics (including yourself) being accused of condoning and encouraging homosexuality and pedophilia, because of the actions of " a few" Catholic ORDAINED priests.
Hey maybe you yourself have partaken? I guess it doesn't really matter. You're willing to look the other way, so long as you get to feel superior to us unwashed masses.
“..because of the actions of “ a few” Catholic ORDAINED priests.”
Wow.
The sexual deviance in the matter of Catholic priests is a MORAL FAILURE of the individual and is NOT sanctioned by the church’s teachings. They are not ordained despite it and held up by teaching as blameless.
So does this mean that all Protestants eschew all photographs, paintings, statues, sculptures, etc., and avoid museums like the plague lest they be witness to the sin of the artists who painted or sculpted anyone’s or anything’s likeness? Somehow I doubt it. I likewise doubt that God really meant for no person to ever draw or paint or sculpt anything that resembles anything in creation. Clearly what He meant was not to create a likeness which one would then attribute qualities to and then worship it.
In our Catholic faith, we recognize the nature of human beings, and fill our churches (or sometimes don’t fill much) with images of Christ on the cross, the Holy Family, and the risen Christ. Depending on the church, there may also be some statues or likenesses of those who have led an exemplary Christian or Jewish existence, because when we are sitting in the pews for an hour or more, should our minds and eyes begin to wander, the images we behold serve the purpose of bringing our thoughts back around to God and salvation history, rather than focusisng on the tag sticking out the back of someone’s shirt, or another person’s cowlick. Regardless of what the readings and homily are about, we are reminded weekly (or in some cases even daily) about all that the Lord has done for us throughout the history of mankind, and all that He has promised to do. I really don’t believe that He has any problem with that, else He would have directed for Solomon’s Temple to have been built as an austere, unadorned meeting space. As anyone who has read the descriptions would know, that is far from the truth, therefor there is biblical precedent set for having a worship space that reminds one of exactly where you are when you enter.
Catholics do not worship anything but the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,including Christ in the Holy Eucharist, though we are well aware of the falsehoods that are repeated about us among non-Catholics, who seem to always be looking for a way to tear down the true Church which Christ founded Himself (and admittedly, whose stewards may have led astray from time to time. No person becomes perfect and sinless just because they become ordained, and logic and reason would tell you that.). Spreading falsehoods about the oldest Christian Church in existence is a waste of time, try learning the truth about us instead. Remember, Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church.
Remember also that whichever Christian faith you follow (for the most part), the important thing at the base of it is we are believers in Christ and His sacrifice for us, and that makes all of us part of His Body, so it is more productive to make the effort to try to get along. I personally have no problems with Protestants or Jews, they are all my brothers and sisters in the Lord. I only have a problem when someone who is misinformed casts aspersions and accusations at my faith, which is precious and beautiful to me, just like my country, even when someone in charge makes a mistake.
Are you posting a position in which the 10 Commandments are irrelevant and a Christian can violate them at will with impunity?
Hey maybe you yourself have partaken? I guess it doesn't really matter. You're willing to look the other way, so long as you get to feel superior to us unwashed masses.
Certainly there is so much to feel superior to, but that is not the point. The incidence of 'married' Protestant clergy engaged in pedophilia is higher than that of 'unmarried' Catholic clergy. The point is that when you take upon yourself to rewrite your doctrines to allow for your own predilections, then you have departed from Christianity. Christianity comes from Christ. The doctrines of the Reformation come from men. Men like Luther who worshipped luxury and wealth; men like Calvin who worshipped power; and men like Zwingli, mystic and play soldier.
You either follow the Church of Jesus Christ or you follow the churches of men, including Joseph Smith, Aimee Semple MacPherson, or any of the myriad false prophets that have littered the landscape since the time of Jesus.
Kindly read my posts and Narses posts leading up to this, to understand the context.
“No, it makes sense because the Bible never calls them the “Ten Commandments” - in Hebrew the Bible calls them the “Ten Words” [aseret ha-devarim].”
Think you are wrong:
Deut. 4:13 “And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and He wrote them upon two tables of stone.
One is not commanded to perform just “words.”
Hank
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