Posted on 02/12/2010 7:55:56 PM PST by ComeUpHigher
Leaders of the Methodist Church yesterday offered to surrender more than 200 years of independence from the Church of England.
They said they were ready to 'cease having a separate existence' and merge with Anglicans to help the cause of Christianity.
The promise, made to the Church of England's parliament, the General Synod, follows two decades of growing anxiety among Methodists over falling membership and its receding influence in society.
Once seen as a pillar of working class culture and a major contributor to the thinking of the Labour Party, the church has seen its membership shrink to just 265,000.
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
metanoeo has no resemblance to the meaning of the word 'penance.' It's literal translation means to 'change the mind, to reconsider - be convinced'. In context it's closest approximation in English is 'repent.'
The falling away of the Methodist church in England is sad, but it is a symptom of a greater dissolution in the West and in post-war Europe in particular, where an existential crisis has taken deep root in the form of post-modernism. The church in all her branches has not been exempt from this, either.
Even so, come quickly Lord.
ping
I, like others, still hold to what the Church was and hope to endure until these fads pass. We choose to stay and defend our church home instead of abandoning it.
It will be a close race...
***There is always Jimmy***
Is he trying to baptize a rabbit or is the rabbit trying to baptize Jimmy?
It doesn't have to. The Muslims just need to keep having more children as growing immigrants -- and as growing families to the UK (have you seen the avg. worldwide age of Muslims?...all the while UKians are slowly unreproducing themselves out of eventual existence as a people group
In fact, I would insist that the Catholic translation reflects most accurately the meaning.
It is true, indeed, that “metanoiete” literally means “change your mind”. But so the “Spirit”, “Ruach” means “breath”, “Resurrection” means “stand up again”, etc. We translate meanings, not root components.
So what is the meaning of “metanoiete”? The immediate context in Luke leads up to the parable of the fruitless fig tree; the gardener pledges to apply work to it: dig around it and fertilize it. Next, the pharisees accuse Jesus of what? of working, on a Sabbath. So the immediate context points not to changing of the mind but of physical deeds.
Who said “metanoiete” first? St. John the Baptist. What example did he give? Ascetism: hair shirt, fasting, solitude, the classic forms of penance. Again, the meaning is that we should do something, not just think something.
Jesus Himself showed us not just thoughts but deeds: He fasted, went alone for forty days, climbed mountains to pray, and let His flesh be abused.
But one person, Judas, — he “repented”. Changed his mind.
So, no, Douay is the only translation to read if you read in English. Other translations have merits, especially Catholic ones, but accuracy is not one of them.
First, that is not the only example of penance I gave, and I could give more.
Second, the baptism of St. John, as well as the Christian baptism, is linked to metanoia. In nearly all examples of baptism in the Bible they occur together.
If you wish to argue that what St. John did had no relationship to what he preached, — maybe he liked camel hair! — well, go ahead and argue that. As Catholic, I’ll stick to what the Bible is telling me, and I don’t think the acts of penance done by St. John are there by accident.
Once a church gives up on the inerrancy of scripture, in either thought or deed, then this is always the fate. The gradual takeover of liberal and humanistic philosophy and the subsequent decline and collapse. “Did God really say.....”
In regards to the fig tree in Luke 12, the gardener is probably the Holy Spirit: the fig tree is most definitely not hoeing and fertilizing itself. The message of the parable is that God works in our lives, but ultimately we going to bear the responsibility for our spiritual condition.
As for your other argument, I will simply ask did John preach the Baptism of Repentance or the Baptism of Penance?
I prefer the translation that agrees with the way the word is used by the original speaker and writer. The word “metanoia” and its derivations are used in the sense of doing something rather than in the sense of thinking something. The translation, therefore, should follow the meaning in context. This is a solid linguistic principle, as opposed to the Protestant dogma-first idea that works cannot possibly have anything to do with salvation, which is driving a lot of nonsensical hermeneutics, including this one.
That God is one working in us whenever we work good, no Catholic would dispute (Eph. 2:10, Ph. 2:12-13, Rom. 8:13). Still, if the revived tree is a figure of metanoia, then the work required in producing fruit, again, points to an active rather than contemplative nature of it.
St. John preached the baptism of metanoia. Repentance and penance are two English translations for it. Either one needs to be understood in the sense in which it was preached, and it was preached by a hermit in a hair shirt in perpetual fast. Hence the Catholic understanding of the Gospel original is correct. How to translate it in English is not really my business, — you are the one who decided to pick one translation over the other. I don’t argue over words, but over meanings. Given the disaster that Protestantism generally was in the Western culture, I’d recommend, since you ask, when a choice exists, choose one least conducive to the Protestant error.
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