Posted on 02/12/2010 8:29:49 AM PST by colorcountry
I asked for it.
My column last week was met with an overwhelming response from active Latter-day Saints, objective religious observers and fervent anti-Mormons. It made its way onto several message boards and blogs, sparking discussions that ran the gamut from the insightful and constructive to the snarky and fruitless.
All in all, the column -- in which I encouraged Mormon readers to genuinely ask aggressors why they so dislike the church and its members -- garnered hundreds of replies. There was no way I could have responded to every message.
Still, many of their responses were insightful and, I believe, important for Latter-day Saints to hear. I struggled with whether I should post them in my column because, after all, I am an active, believing Mormon writing for other active, believing Mormons. But ultimately I determined I would be remiss if I asked a question in this column without providing any of the answers.
I should say now that I definitely do not agree with or accept every assertion made in the following comments. But I do believe they are opinions that are held by many sincere, reasonable people, and that means we should take notice
The purpose of sharing these comments is not to discourage the faith of active Latter-day Saints. Rather, it is intended to be an education to those of us who hope to change others' opinions and perceptions of our church.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
"If you want respect, respect others. Respect my time and understand that the intrusion of missionaries, pushy or otherwise, is an encroachment on my time. I don't appreciate having missionaries trying to strike up a conversation on the street that inevitably leads to debate. I have my beliefs ... among which is that the Mormon Church is false. I don't want to talk about it in a conversation that ends up in a mental battle over who got in the final word and who happens to be right. If I say 'no' I mean it. Don't try striking up the conversation from a different angle. Simply say 'OK,' say something nice like, 'Have a nice day,' smile and go about your business."
JUDGE NOT THAT YE BE NOT JUDGED
"So, about a year ago, I decided to read the Book of Mormon one more time, and pray about it, just like an investigator would. ...
"What do I hate? When I share that story with a member (usually someone I trust) and they tell me that God didn't answer my prayers after years of questioning and studying and, yeah, pleading for guidance because 1) I wasn't sincere enough, 2) I wasn't worthy enough, 3) I wasn't listening hard enough, or 4) I'm a liar.
"You see, none of these faithful members know my heart, yet despite a 'divine' commandment to 'judge not,' or to 'judge not unrighteous judgments' that's exactly what they do."
THREATENING THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM
"As a non-member, I can offer you a few thoughts concerning this subject. For starters 'they' are taught to hate you. Mormons do not fit the 'traditional' definition of Christianity as understood by several of the predominant denominations. As a youth I was raised Roman Catholic. It was taught at that time (mid- to late '50s) that if you were not Catholic you were a follower of the devil and would automatically be condemned to hell. ...
"One thing the so-called traditional faiths share is a belief in the New Testament of the Bible as their sole source of religious inspiration. They also share a common resentment of anyone who challenges that belief system.
"Now arriving is the Latter-day Saints, the Mormons, newcomers to the religious community with a new book of spiritual inspiration that is outside of the traditionally accepted realm of truths. It most certainly does not 'fit in' with long-accepted dogma. With your aggressive pursuit of growth and well-funded expansion 'they' feel threatened.
"Unfortunately, as with any new challenge to one's beliefs, if it doesn't reinforce the belief system of the established traditional congregation, they fear it.
"As to 'Why do they hate us?' I can only suggest that you haven't convinced 'them' of the truth of your message. But take comfort in the fact that you are not alone. 'They' challenge each other as vigorously as they challenge you for the right to claim exclusive rights to understanding our creation and our place in a spiritual kingdom."
(Excerpted)
Joseph Smith stated that God told him: "they [other churches] were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:19).Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).
Matthew 15:16
"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
Matthew 231. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
4. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5. "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;
6. they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
7. they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
8. "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9. And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10. Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you will be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
14. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16. "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18. You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19. You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20. Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
22. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30. And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31. So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34. Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38. Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
Mark 7:26-27
26. The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27. "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
And St. Paul chimes in...
Galatians 5:12
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
| The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. Rights and use information. Privacy policy. |
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Uh, please point out where I have engaged in any dogmatic discussion of Mormonism and get back to me.
Try building an amusement park, calling it Disneyland, and see how long that lasts.
Speaking of FALSEHOODs; just WHY are YOU so RELUCTANT to tell us just what JS 'learned' was UNTRUE about PRESBYTERIANism?
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
| Psa 49:14 |
Like sheep they are destined for the grave, and death will feed on them. The upright will rule over them in the morning; their forms will decay in the grave, far from their princely mansions.
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| Isa 9:5 |
Every warrior's boot used in battle and every garment rolled in blood will be destined for burning, will be fuel for the fire.
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| Jer 15:2 |
And if they ask you, 'Where shall we go?' tell them, 'This is what the Lord says: " 'Those destined for death, to death; those for the sword, to the sword; those for starvation, to starvation; those for captivity, to captivity.'
|
| Jer 43:11 |
He will come and attack Egypt, bringing death to those destined for death, captivity to those destined for captivity, and the sword to those destined for the sword.
|
| Eze 31:14 |
Therefore no other trees by the waters are ever to tower proudly on high, lifting their tops above the thick foliage. No other trees so well-watered are ever to reach such a height; they are all destined for death, for the earth below, among mortal men, with those who go down to the pit.
|
| Luk 2:34 |
Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against,
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| 1Cr 2:7 |
No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
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| Col 2:22 |
These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.
|
| 1Th 3:3 |
so that no one would be unsettled by these trials. You know quite well that we were destined for them.
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| Hbr 9:27 |
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
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| 1Pe 2:8 | and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message-which is also what they were destined for. |
It took me learning Greek and Hebrew to realize that the Bible IS translated correctly and that there was no ‘tampering’ by the ‘traditions of men’ with the texts.
In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.
1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.
I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.
Ezra Taft Benson
(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)
Who is the "I" mentioned here?
Is this some manta that LDS folks LEARN to repeat without thinking?
THREE BEINGS is, by definition, POLYTHEISTIC!
TWO bodies would give MOST rational people a clue - one they wouldn't even have to buy!
POLYTHEISM!
Like may arguments that LDS make, it assumes much and understands little. Turn the other cheek, love the nehibhor as they self and all such admonishments apply to the brothers and sisters with in the Body of Christ. We are also asked to love those outside the body in as much as they are not causing harm or attacking Christ and his Church.
This obviously does not apply to a “faith’ that denies the true Christ, belittles hims, mocks him, reducing him in stature in Glory and misrepresents him and his message. We are admonished to love those within such as “faith” but to defend his Church against their ideas, customs and attacks.
So while you have quoted the correct scripture to make you "argument", the conditions you assume are incorrect, Mormonism resides outside the Body of Christ.
FAIRLDS
That great storehouse of spin.
PLEASE!!
Un-distort what JS said about PRESBYTERIANism!
While I find it rather odd that a religious organization would want to reserve the RIGHT to call ONLY themselves ‘mormon’ when there are PLENTY of other organizations that BELIEVE in the Book of MORMON.
***
The fool does not even know the Bill of Rights were inspired from God!
How vain of you to think this fractured progressive group of yours is the Body of the Lord
Predestination and destined are two different things.
One is only destined if they don’t strive to keep the Lord’s commandments
You have truth as spin which you don’t even come close!
If there ever was a man contenious it is the daily retorts of none other THAN ELSIE!
16 But if any man seem to "be contentious," we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
OH; I see what you are saying.
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