Why do they hate us? The responses (Mormonism-Open)

The MormonTimes ^ | Feb, 12, 2010 | By McKay Coppins

[colorcountry]

I asked for it.

My column last week was met with an overwhelming response from active Latter-day Saints, objective religious observers and fervent anti-Mormons. It made its way onto several message boards and blogs, sparking discussions that ran the gamut from the insightful and constructive to the snarky and fruitless.

All in all, the column -- in which I encouraged Mormon readers to genuinely ask aggressors why they so dislike the church and its members -- garnered hundreds of replies. There was no way I could have responded to every message.

Still, many of their responses were insightful and, I believe, important for Latter-day Saints to hear. I struggled with whether I should post them in my column because, after all, I am an active, believing Mormon writing for other active, believing Mormons. But ultimately I determined I would be remiss if I asked a question in this column without providing any of the answers.

I should say now that I definitely do not agree with or accept every assertion made in the following comments. But I do believe they are opinions that are held by many sincere, reasonable people, and that means we should take notice

The purpose of sharing these comments is not to discourage the faith of active Latter-day Saints. Rather, it is intended to be an education to those of us who hope to change others' opinions and perceptions of our church.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T

"If you want respect, respect others. Respect my time and understand that the intrusion of missionaries, pushy or otherwise, is an encroachment on my time. I don't appreciate having missionaries trying to strike up a conversation on the street that inevitably leads to debate. I have my beliefs ... among which is that the Mormon Church is false. I don't want to talk about it in a conversation that ends up in a mental battle over who got in the final word and who happens to be right. If I say 'no' I mean it. Don't try striking up the conversation from a different angle. Simply say 'OK,' say something nice like, 'Have a nice day,' smile and go about your business."

JUDGE NOT THAT YE BE NOT JUDGED

"So, about a year ago, I decided to read the Book of Mormon one more time, and pray about it, just like an investigator would. ...

"What do I hate? When I share that story with a member (usually someone I trust) and they tell me that God didn't answer my prayers after years of questioning and studying and, yeah, pleading for guidance because 1) I wasn't sincere enough, 2) I wasn't worthy enough, 3) I wasn't listening hard enough, or 4) I'm a liar.

"You see, none of these faithful members know my heart, yet despite a 'divine' commandment to 'judge not,' or to 'judge not unrighteous judgments' that's exactly what they do."

THREATENING THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM

"As a non-member, I can offer you a few thoughts concerning this subject. For starters 'they' are taught to hate you. Mormons do not fit the 'traditional' definition of Christianity as understood by several of the predominant denominations. As a youth I was raised Roman Catholic. It was taught at that time (mid- to late '50s) that if you were not Catholic you were a follower of the devil and would automatically be condemned to hell. ...

"One thing the so-called traditional faiths share is a belief in the New Testament of the Bible as their sole source of religious inspiration. They also share a common resentment of anyone who challenges that belief system.

"Now arriving is the Latter-day Saints, the Mormons, newcomers to the religious community with a new book of spiritual inspiration that is outside of the traditionally accepted realm of truths. It most certainly does not 'fit in' with long-accepted dogma. With your aggressive pursuit of growth and well-funded expansion 'they' feel threatened.

"Unfortunately, as with any new challenge to one's beliefs, if it doesn't reinforce the belief system of the established traditional congregation, they fear it.

"As to 'Why do they hate us?' I can only suggest that you haven't convinced 'them' of the truth of your message. But take comfort in the fact that you are not alone. 'They' challenge each other as vigorously as they challenge you for the right to claim exclusive rights to understanding our creation and our place in a spiritual kingdom."

(Excerpted)

[restornu]

I smile too because of the falsehoods you try to spin!

Christ said the very gates of hell could not prevail against His Church. He promised to be with Christians always.

In other words, no restoration needed.

And if there were a needed restoration, the LDS church could not possibly be it. Why?

It denies the teaching

***

It is the Tradition of men that is doing the denying!

A gospel dispensation is a period of time in which the Lord has at least one authorized servant on the earth who bears the keys of the holy priesthood.

Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, and others have each started a new gospel dispensation. When the Lord organizes a dispensation, the gospel is revealed anew so that the people of that dispensation do not have to depend on past dispensations for knowledge of the plan of salvation. The dispensation begun by Joseph Smith is known as the “dispensation of the fulness of times.”

Don't mind the Lord's and His Latter Day Servants at work that needs to be prepare such as first to take place is a "fallin away" and the last dispensation when the Lord Jesus Christ to annoits His prophet and restores the priesthood as mention of the restitution of all things in Acts 3, just keep listening to your Tradition of Men! AMPU

The Church of Jesus Chrsit of Latter Day Saints is once again on earth. Ye are the children of the prophets! ACTS 3
19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

2 Thes. 2
Apostasy is to precede the Second Coming—

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness

[restornu]

Try predestination or any one of the other philosophies of men!

[reaganaut]

what does that have to do with a bible translation?

The Bible is the Bible is the Bible. It took me learning Greek and Hebrew to realize that the Bible IS translated correctly and that there was no ‘tampering’ by the ‘traditions of men’ with the texts.

I was also fortunate to be able to do some work on the Dead Sea Scrolls that reinforced the fact that the Bible is reliable, contrary to what the LDS teach.

However, that does not change the fact that the headings in the LDS version of the KJV PREDISPOSES members to a certain interpretation that the actual text and context of the Bible often contradicts.

[restornu]

I believe in the family of the Heavenly Father and His only begotten Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost! The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct beings who constitute one Godhead. Generally speaking, the Father is the Creator, the Son is the Redeemer, and the Holy Ghost is the Comforter and Testifier Many scriptural passages illustrate the distinct character of the members of the Godhead. For example, at the baptism of Jesus, while he was in the water, the Father's voice was heard from heaven, and the Holy Ghost descended "like a dove" and rested upon the Son (Matt. 3:13-17; see Jesus Christ: Baptism).

All three persons were manifested separately and simultaneously. Also, Jesus said, "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28), and in another place declared, "The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son" (John 5:22).

Further, Jesus pointed to the Father and himself as two separate witnesses of the divinity of his work (John 5:32-37; 8:12-18). On the Mount of Transfiguration the heavenly Father identified the mortal Jesus to Peter, James, and John as "my beloved Son" (Matt. 17:5).

Moreover, the Son often prayed to his Father. In Gethsemane he prayed to the Father while in deep anguish (Mark 14:32-39; cf. Luke 22:40-46; D&C 19:16-19), and on the cross he cried out to the Father, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34; cf. Ps. 22:1).

All of these passages clearly show that the Father is a being distinct from the Son. Although they are one in mind and purpose, they are two separate individuals and bear testimony of one another (cf. 3 Ne. 11:7-11). ~All About Mormons

[reaganaut]

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct beings who constitute one Godhead.

- - - - - -
So, all three are separate Gods, right? That makes the LDS polytheists.

Not to mention the ‘other’ Gods (God’s God) and those who will become Gods.

[reaganaut]

And of course, the LDS use those verses out of context and misinterpret them.

[Godzilla]

So you believe in polytheism -

Jesus didn’t

Maybe you better listen to Jesus than the familiar spirit whispering to you from the bom.

[reaganaut]

Maybe you better listen to Jesus than the familiar spirit whispering to you from the bom.

- - - - - - -
I am still is shock when an LDS missionary asks if I felt a ‘familiar spirit’ while reading the Book of Mormon, like that’s a GOOD thing!

So then we have to get to defining what a ‘familiar spirit’ is. *Sigh*.

[reaganaut]

ONLY ONE GOD or THREE separate Gods united only in purpose?

Not a hard question.

[restornu]

So, all three are separate Gods, right? That makes the LDS polytheists.

***

wrong

Usually the very same people who are pressing the case that Mormons are polytheists are some stripe of Evangelical Christians who claim to be monotheists. But Trinitarians are not Monotheists by definition (just ask a Jew or Muslim).

The facts that the LDS do not believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one in substance, and believe in deification/theosis (that humans may eventually become deified and become partakers in the divine nature), has been used to paint Mormons as polytheists. When we examine the technical terminology above, though, it becomes clear that a key point of demarcation is worship versus acknowledgment of existence.

If members of the Church worshiped an extensive pantheon like the Greeks or Romans, then the label would be appropriate. In the context of doctrinal differences over the relationship among the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, however, or the doctrine of deification (which is a profoundly Christian doctrine and not just a Mormon one), use of the word “polytheistic” as a pejorative is both inaccurate and inappropriate.

Instead of using a single-word label, one must actually articulate the belief (using fully-developed sentences or paragraphs). The single-word label that will adequately describe the full breadth of LDS thought on the nature of God has yet to be coined.

Conclusion
Latter-day Saints are not polytheists in any reasonable sense of the term that does not also exclude most other Christians who deny the Modalist heresy. Trying to reduce LDS thought to a simple term or “slogan” in this way distorts LDS doctrine.

The Saints worship one God. There are no competing divinities in whom they put their trust. LDS scripture contains such language (1 Nephi 13:41, 2 Nephi 31:21, Mosiah 15:1-5, Alma 11:26-37, Morm. 7:7, D&C 20:28, Mos. 1:20), but it is qualified in somewhat the same way that Creedal Christians have found a way of saying “three”—as in Trinity—and yet also one.

FAIRLDS

[restornu]

I am still is shock when an LDS missionary asks if I felt a ‘familiar spirit’ while reading the Book of Mormon, like that’s a GOOD thing!

***

This is a good example of the progressive spirit alive and well in those who choose to distort the LDS Doctrine or the Missionaries!

LDS always talks about the Holy Ghost NEVER a familar spirit just disgussing to what links you will go to distort!

[restornu]

1 Cor 11
16 But if any man seem to "be contentious," we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

2 Tim. 3: 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Tim. 4: 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables

[Elsie]

Saints;

 

This months word is: Progressive.

 

Sprinkle it liberally thoughout your messages.  Some folks will think it means one thing,

while the way WE use it will surely upset them foul, bigoted, hateful ANTI-mormon Gentiles!

 

 

(Be sure to update your MORMON Dictionary.  New CD's are in the Bookstores now.)

 

 

ADAM	LDS - Father of physical mankind.  Adam is also known as Michael the archangel, the ancient of days, (D&C 116).	Bible - the first created man by whom all of humanity descends.  He was not Michael the archangel.
ATONEMENT	LDS - The sacrifice of Christ that made resurrection possible along with the possibility of our earning forgiveness of sins.	Bible - The substitutionary sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf. He died for our sins (1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 2:2).
AARONIC PRIESTHOOD	LDS - A lesser priesthood in the LDS church.  It is still used in LDS church practices and is held by the very young, (D&C 107:1, 6, 10).	Bible - A priesthood that is no longer necessary now that we have the full revelation of Christ.
BAPTISM	LDS - A necessary ordinance for salvation in the Mormon church.  By it sins are washed away.	Bible - An ordinance of the Christian church that is not necessary for salvation (Rom. 5:1).
BIBLE	LDS - The Bible is correct only as far as it is correctly translated. It is basically trustworthy. It is the only one of the four standard works (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) that is not considered infallible. The KJV is the official Bible of the LDS church.	Bible - the Bible is the inspired inerrant word of God (2 Tim. 3:16).
BISHOP	LDS - an office in the Melchizedek Priesthood of the LDS church.  D&C 20:67),	Bible - An office held by a male member of the Church.
CELESTIAL HEAVEN	LDS - The highest of the three levels of heaven where faithful Mormons are exalted to Godhood.	Bible - There is no such thing as a celestial heaven.
CHURCH	LDS - The LDS church with its organizational structure, laws, and proper name.	Bible - The body of believers in the true and living God through Jesus.  It is comprised of those who are redeemed and is not limited to an earthly structure.
DAMNATION	LDS - Basically, anything lesser than exaltation (becoming a God).	Bible - The state of condemnation, judged by God in eternal hell (Matt. 25:46).
DEVIL	LDS - See Satan.	Bible - See Satan.
ELOHIM	LDS - The name of God the Father.	Bible - The Hebrew word for "God."  The name of God is "YHWH," which means "I AM,"  (Exodus 3:14).
ETERNAL LIFE	LDS - Exaltation (exaltation to a Mormon means obtaining Godhood) in the Celestial Kingdom.	Bible - Forgiveness of sins and life eternal with God (John 17:3; Rom. 6:23).
EXALTATION	LDS - The state of becoming a god in the celestial heaven.	Bible - There is no such thing as becoming a God in the Bible.
FALL OF MANKIND	LDS - A blessing (Mosiah 3: 11-16).  A necessary step in the progression of humanity to the level of Godhood.	Bible - The open rebellion of Adam and Eve against God resulting in their condemnation and the fall of mankind.
GOD	LDS - One of countless gods in existence.  An exalted man from another world who created the earth who's name is "Elohim."  He became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on the other world.  He has a body of flesh and bones.  D&C 130: 22-23.	Bible - The one and only God in all the universe, (Isaiah 44:6,8).
GODHEAD	LDS - An office held by three separate Gods: the Father who is a god; Jesus who is a god; and the Holy Ghost who is a god.	Bible - God Himself, not an office. Three persons in one God. A Trinity: The Father; the Son; and the Holy Spirit.
GOSPEL	LDS - The laws and ordinances of the Mormon church.	Bible - The death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus for the forgiveness of the sins of all who would trust in Him (1 Cor. 15:1-4).
HEAVEN	LDS - Divided into three Kingdoms: Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. The Celestial is for perfect Mormons, the Terrestrial is for moral people and lukewarm LDS, and the Telestial Kingdom is for everyone else.	Bible - The dwelling place of God (1 Kings 8:30). Christians go to heaven.
HELL	LDS - The temporary abode in the spirit world between death and resurrection for those awaiting telestial glory, (D&C 76: 84-85, 106).  Hell will come to an end.	Bible - the eternal dwelling place of those who rejected the atoning work of Christ.
HOLY GHOST	LDS - "A spirit man. He can only be at one place at one time... " (Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 359.) The Holy Ghost is contrasted with the Spirit of God, which is the influence of the Godhead that fills the immensity of space which enables God to know what is going on.  It is likened to electricity." D&C 130: 22-23.	Bible - Third person of the Trinity. Same as Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4).
HOLY SPIRIT	LDS - The presence of God as distinguished from the Holy Ghost who is a god in the mormon trinity.	Bible - An equivalent term to Holy Ghost, third person in the Trinity.
JEHOVAH	LDS - The name of Jesus in the Old Testament.	Bible - The name of God is "YHWH," which means "I AM,"  (Exodus 3:14).
JESUS	LDS - Literal offspring of God the father.  Spirit brother of Satan. A god in the Godhead. He is Jehovah of the O.T. compared to Elohim being the Father. He was the first spirit child to be born to the Father and Mother gods. Ordained as the Christ in the pre-existent Grand Council before coming to earth.	Bible - Jesus is God, second person of the Trinity (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9).
KINGDOM OF GOD	LDS - Celestial heaven. The kingdom of God on earth is the LDS church.	Bible - All the believers of Christ (Matt. 13:41-43).
MARRIAGE	LDS - An eternal bonding of husband and wife that continues into the afterlife.  These couples will continue to have children.  (D&C 132:15-20).	Bible - the holy covenant between a man and a woman that is broken at death.
MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD	LDS - A greater priesthood in the LDS church held by elders, (D&C 107),	Bible - A priesthood held by Jesus alone.
PRE-EXISTENCE	LDS - We existed in heaven with God our (literal) Father and mother before we became human.	Bible - We did not exist before we came to earth (1 Cor. 15:46).
SALVATION	LDS - Two fold meaning:  Simple bodily resurrection of all people.  Also, forgiveness of sins.	Bible - Forgiveness of sins with the result of a present new life and in the future eternal life with God (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Rom. 6:23; 10:9-10).
SATAN	LDS - The opposer of God, literal son of God, brother of Jesus and all people begotten in the pre-existent spirit world.	Bible - A fallen angel who rebelled against God.
SCRIPTURE	LDS - Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price. Brigham Young said, "I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture." (Journal of Discourses 13:95)	Bible - Only the Bible is scripture.
TEMPLE	LDS - A present day temple used to practice the ordinances and ceremonies of the gospel of the LDS church on behalf of the living as well as the dead.	Bible - The Old Testament building where God dwelt, sacrifices were offered, and holy priestly rites were administered.  There is no longer a need for temples.
TRINITY	LDS- Three gods:  a god called the Father; a god called the son; a god called the Holy Ghost. Mosiah 15 Excerpt How Christ is both the Father and the Son...	Bible - The one and only God in all existence who is comprised of three persons:  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  See Trinity.

Go to http://scriptures.lds.org/bd/contents for a list of Mormon words and definitions produced by the LDS church.

[Elsie]

I find nothing wrong with Mormon. People that say they are Christian, I believe them to be so...

Meanwhile; these same folks (If they are SLC Mormons) have the gaul to insist that no other groups be able to call themselves MORMON if they wish.

During the Flds flap in Texas last year they were going absolutely BALLISTIC in trying keep the news from calling the POLYGAMISTs 'mormon'!

They sent out PRESS RELEASES to that effect!

---

We lovable fuzzball ANTIs find that a bit strange, because the FUNDAMENTAList ldsers actually FOLLOW the MORMON scripture found in D&C 132, while the SLC bunch, fearful of losing their worldly goods in the 1890's, ABANDONED the practice for the 'blessings' of Statehood.

[Elsie]

A party?

I didn’t get MY invite yet!

[Elsie]

BTW I have serveral different kinds of Bibles!

Tell us then: Just what did JS 'learn' to be UNTRUE about PRESBYTERIANism.

[Elsie]

 

All I hope for is that if Romney runs, he MUST give a speech all about his mormonism; explaining it all.

 

And get Resty to be his speechwriter!

 

 

                

When Joseph Smith ran for president in 1844, a pamphlet expressing his views (“General Smith’s Views”) was distributed across the nation. Probably penned by Phelps, the New York Herald described the document as “a very remarkable and original document…a more curious and unique thing has probably not been published since the time of Mohamet…” The following are some of Joseph’s positions*; they are worth reading for their striking humanity alone, born, no doubt out of his own deprivations:

MORE  -->  http://bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/19/joseph-smiths-views/

[Elsie]

 

LDS does not believe in polytheism that is a label given from your clan!

 

SLC LDS does not PRACTICE polygamy since 1890; they leave that for the other MORMON clans that are NOT afraid.

 

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---

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"Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriage...I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws..."

~ Wilford Woodruff, 4th LDS President

[Elsie]

 

LDS does not believe in polytheism that is a label given from your clan!

Yeah!

We merely believe in ONE GOD; who just happens to reside in TWO physical bodies.

--MormonDude(Why can't you folks UNDERSTAND that??)

[Elsie]

I’m LDS and I don’t spend time trying to point out to others the errors of their ways when it comes to beliefs.

Sounds like you've not been on the Mormon Mission Field...