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The Death of Spain - New Chapter
Rorate Caeli ^ | 2/11/10

Posted on 02/12/2010 7:31:17 AM PST by marshmallow

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To: Clemenza

Hitler was the one who had the Luftwaffe bomb Guernica, and in fact this was one of the things that led Franco to remain neutral in WWII; he was not even informed of the bombing until it had occurred, and would never have approved it. Franco was a Spanish nationalist, and did not appreciate having someone come in and destroy his country and his people.

The peasants were not the ones who, as you put it, “took arms against an aristocratic Church.” Any reaction to the Church depended largely on the extent of Communist labor activities among the workers of a particular area, and the worst by far were the Communist-influenced workers of Barcelona. And what they attacked first, in the usual program of “miserification,” were Church schools, religious orders that ran charitable activities, and individual priests and layleaders, particularly those involved in social and charitable works. This was all motivated by the Communists, who had been active in Spain for decades before the war and in fact who attained dominance only through electoral manipulations and the failure of the Church to offer any political support to the opponents of Communism.

The Church was just fine under Franco and had about the same level of anti-Catholicism (mostly anti-clericalism) as any majority Catholic country, where anti-clericalism is sort of a family sport. What destroyed the Catholic Church in Spain was Vatican II, which destroyed the liturgy and devotions to which people were attached and also brought the religious orders to ruin. It was in fact the Catholic laity who revived and kept alive traditional Catholic practice with things like pilgrimages and processions, and who are currently leading the religious resurgence that Spain is experiencing in response to the attacks of the Zapatero government. Spain is much more Catholic than other Catholic countries, such as France or even Italy, and this is on the rise.

You might trying reading the work of Stanley Payne, IMHO the best, least partisan of the English language historians of Spain, if you would actually like to know something about both Spain and the Catholic Church in Spain in the years leading up to and following the war.


21 posted on 02/12/2010 9:25:08 AM PST by livius
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To: livius
The peasants were not the ones who, as you put it, “took arms against an aristocratic Church.”

In Andalusia, yes, in the rest of Spain, no.

Any reaction to the Church depended largely on the extent of Communist labor activities among the workers of a particular area, and the worst by far were the Communist-influenced workers of Barcelona.

This is correct in the urban areas. The anti-clerical and communist proletariat of Barcelona had a long history of mass violence/strikes/riots before the war, and they continued their activities afterwards. Let's also not forget the anarchists, who also maintained a following that dwarfed their minuscule numbers in other European countries.

This was all motivated by the Communists, who had been active in Spain for decades before the war and in fact who attained dominance only through electoral manipulations and the failure of the Church to offer any political support to the opponents of Communism.

Not entirely true, as even Stalin admitted. The left was actually highly divided in Spain (communists and anarchists in Barcelona, social democrats and radicals in Madrid, etc.). When the Soviets did get involved in earnest, that is when you started seeing bloodletting among the left. The lack of left-wing unity, ethnic divisions, as well as Franco's superior tactical skills caused the latter to win the war.

The Church was just fine under Franco and had about the same level of anti-Catholicism (mostly anti-clericalism) as any majority Catholic country, where anti-clericalism is sort of a family sport.

It has been said in Spain, as in Italy, that everyone follows the Church, one half with a candle, the other half with a club.

What destroyed the Catholic Church in Spain was Vatican II, which destroyed the liturgy and devotions to which people were attached and also brought the religious orders to ruin.

Vat II did the same in every other western nation (and I include Latin America with the west here). Vat II, however, was part of a response to the rapid secularization that was occurring concurrently due to the depopulation of the countryside (and decline of agricultural labor and shift to an industrial and, later, post-industrial economy), and the rise of television and mass communication that destroyed much of provincial society throughout the world.

It was in fact the Catholic laity who revived and kept alive traditional Catholic practice with things like pilgrimages and processions, and who are currently leading the religious resurgence that Spain is experiencing in response to the attacks of the Zapatero government.

True, and you do see increasing participation among the youth as well. 15 years ago, any Catholic rally would have resembled an outing at an old age home. Nevertheless, "religious populism" is largely confined to its heartlands (Galicia, the Basque Country, Navarra), and it remains to be seen if it will spread in the rest of the nation.

Spain is much more Catholic than other Catholic countries, such as France or even Italy, and this is on the rise.

In the latest surveys, I believe that slightly under 30% of Italians in any age group state that they attend mass more than a few times a year. I thought the the figure was similar in Spain, where mass attendance plummeted from the mid-70s to the early 90s, and then stabilized.

As far as Stanley Payne is concerned, he is the best historian of Spain in the English language, and proof that not everyone in Madistan is a nutcase.

22 posted on 02/12/2010 9:43:15 AM PST by Clemenza (Remember our Korean War Veterans)
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To: Pyro7480

May the Third Reconquista take out the trash for good.


23 posted on 02/12/2010 4:42:20 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: livius

bookmark


24 posted on 02/12/2010 4:47:34 PM PST by Lorica
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To: Clemenza
You sound like a non-Spaniard & non-Catholic, with no roots in either the culture or the religion, that read what they wanted to read into the history of the Spanish Civil War.

If one has no need for religion, they can ignore it, and go have a good time chasing women or whatever they like. No posse of clerics is going to go hunting for them. Any group of men that attacks a priest, or a nun, and burns a churches, are cowards, and enemies of good society.

25 posted on 02/12/2010 4:58:23 PM PST by PPlains
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To: marshmallow

Sad.


26 posted on 02/12/2010 5:04:23 PM PST by Bigg Red (Palin/Hunter 2012 -- Bolton their Secretary of State)
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