Even with decline in baptisms, the church is still true

Mormon Times ^ | Jan. 22, 2010 | McKay Coppins

[Colofornian]

It has become fashionable in recent years to make doomsday predictions about the future of the LDS Church based on the recent decline in convert baptisms.

Of course, this analysis is grossly oversimplified and demonstrates an entirely underdeveloped sense of history. Convert baptisms have risen and fallen in the past due to a variety of factors: wars interrupting missionary service in the '40s and '70s, 18-month missions in the '80s, et cetera.

To predict the extinction of Mormonism or the failure of missionary work based on a relatively short trend of declining conversions is short-sighted. If you want to accurately predict the future of missionary work, you have to take into account historical patterns, current church initiatives -- oh yeah, and you have to be God.

I do think this is an important discussion to have, and I plan on investing more time in examining the external problems facing the LDS missionary program. But I also think it's important to put all of this in context.

As Elder M. Russell Ballard has said, "The Lord has never given us a mandate to be the biggest church -- in fact, he has said our numbers will be comparatively few -- but he has asked that we commit ourselves to living and sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ."

And yet anti-Mormons determined to disprove our faith and well-meaning members with false notions of the church's mission continue to misunderstand this. They tie the success of the LDS missionaries to the truthfulness of the LDS Church.

"If this is really God's church," they say. "Then why aren't more people joining? Why are the conversion rates decreasing?"

The answer is simple: people have their agency. The Lord never promised that the whole world -- or even the majority of its population -- would join his church. He only promised they would all be given the opportunity, if not in this life, in the next.

Did we question the divinity of Paul's calling when he had comparatively little success in Athens? Did the gospel he preached suddenly become less true because fewer people believed it? Of course not. God endorsed Paul's message even as he allowed people to mock and persecute the messenger.

And let's remember: When Jesus was on the earth the number of his followers was pretty small when compared with the population of the entire world. In fact, the more truth he preached, the more the numbers dwindled.

As a faithful Latter-day Saint, I sincerely wish the truth of the gospel would be embraced by all of mankind. But I also know that as long as Satan is free to tempt, distort and deceive, that will never happen. That doesn't mean the church is untrue -- it just means man is fallible.

And that's shouldn't be a surprise to any of us.

[Colofornian]

From the article: It has become fashionable in recent years to make doomsday predictions about the future of the LDS Church based on the recent decline in convert baptisms. Of course, this analysis is grossly oversimplified and demonstrates an entirely underdeveloped sense of history. Convert baptisms have risen and fallen in the past due to a variety of factors: wars interrupting missionary service in the '40s and '70s, 18-month missions in the '80s, et cetera. To predict the extinction of Mormonism or the failure of missionary work based on a relatively short trend of declining conversions is short-sighted. If you want to accurately predict the future of missionary work, you have to take into account historical patterns, current church initiatives -- oh yeah, and you have to be God. I do think this is an important discussion to have, and I plan on investing more time in examining the external problems facing the LDS missionary program. But I also think it's important to put all of this in context. As Elder M. Russell Ballard has said, "The Lord has never given us a mandate to be the biggest church..."

Doncha get the feeling this is like coming into a room & you're hearing the second half of a conversation & would like to be informed of the first half?

Or in legal terms, this is like an attorney attempting to make an argument minus laying out the groundwork. What's missing from this article? Actual numbers. What is the level of the decline?

And why won't the author devote even two sentences to that? (I'm sure the powers that be could tell a little truth-telling. No?)

[DannyTN]

The LDS church is true to what?

• True to the original scriptures? No.
• True to Christian message of salvatino? No.
• True to their own "eternal covenant" of polygamy? No.

  LDS followers are true to a church that is true to nothing.

[Godzilla]

LDS followers are true to a church that is true to nothing.

Quote of the day.

[MissesBush]

And why won't the author devote even two sentences to that? (I'm sure the powers that be could tell a little truth-telling. No?)

These numbers aren't hard to come by. They're reported in the April LDS General Conference and printed in the church's Ensign Magazine once a year. For 2007 the number of LDS Church converts was 279,218. For 2008, the most recent reporting period, the number was 265,593. That's about a 4.8% decline if my math is right. I wonder if the churches crowing about this small decline even get a quarter of the year conversion numbers as these.

If the author was trying to cover anything up, he'd have not written the piece and called attention to the decline to begin with. Your weird obsession with Mormons continues I see.

[svcw]

No mandate to be the biggest......huh? I thought they were operating on the belief that their mandate was to be the richest.

[MissesBush]

True to the original scriptures? No.

According to YOUR interpretation. I could make a very good arguement we're more true to the Biblical scriptures than you likely are. For instance, do you believe in modern day prophets just like in the Bible, or modern apostles? Do you believe in temple practice? What about the ordinance of the washing of the feet which the Savior instituted during the Last Supper along with the sacrament, which he made clear was essential and without it you'd have no place with him?

True to Christian message of salvatino? No.

We believe salvation comes through Christ, that without his death we could merit nothing of ourselves. Without Christ's sacrifice all the good works in the world would never save us. That is the meaning of salvation, not that you get a lifetime of get out of jail free cards from unrepented of, unreformed sin just because you declare Christ with your lips. We believe it's a 2 way street, that Christ provided the way that brings us back to God. But we have to do our part too to make that grace active in our lives. We don't believe you can committ rape and murder and not repent of it and think that you're saved just because you said so. Talk about a cult-like belief and horrible misinterpretation of the meaning of grace and Paul's explanation thereof.

Go read the Book of James to see how astonished he is at the idea someone would think you can commit gross sin and still somehow be brought back to live with God eternally. Why even bother having scriptures at all that tell us of the value of a virtuous life and the need as Christ said to "be ye perfect" or to expound as the scriptures do that sin brings the sinner to an unhappy end, why even have the 10 commandments if the violation of these teachings still allows one to end up in heaven--just so long as they confess Christ with their mouths only? Certainly one of many areas the LDS Church is more in keeping with the Biblical scriptures than you "just say it and you're saved" types. You interpret the scriptures to mean you can commit terrible sins and NEVER repent of them and still be saved. But logic and everything taught in the scriptures says that unrepented of violations of God's commandments will not allow you back into his presence. The belief otherwise is a doctrine of the devil to justify and allow for sin by hypocrites who merely pretend to know Christ.

True to their own "eternal covenant" of polygamy? No.

There is no "eternal covenant" of polygamy. The eternal covenant is of marriage by priesthood authority which most assuredly can be and is of one man and one woman. Are you true to the way Christ organized his church with apostles? Nope. You would probably claim that style of organization is no longer necessary. Do Christians continue to practice the law of Moses and animal sacrifice as God taught the Israelites to do prior to the time of Christ? Nope, God and Christ said that law was fulfilled in Christ. So God can't change or alter what he once commanded people to do? Because he's done it before as we see in the scriptures.

I am always happy to discuss the mistaken interpretations of non-Mormons about LDS beliefs. But I have a strict policy of not further responding when it's obvious the person posting is an axe-grinder like I've found Colorfornian to be, and as your posts indicate you are. You do not build up your own beliefs by tearing down that of others. So I will not respond further because I see nothing constructive that will come out of it because of your mindset. Have a nice weekend.

[Elsie]

Even with decline in baptisms, the church is still true ly deceived!

---

KJV

 Galatians 1:6-9

 6.  I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
 7.  Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
 8.  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
 

 

 

 

ANYBODY???

 

Like this fine looking fellow???

 

 

 

 

 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

 12.  But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
 13.  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
 14.  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
 15.  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

 

Like THESE guys??

 

 

 

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

 

 

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

 

 

---

---

 

Ephesians 2:1-2 

1.  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

---

---

 

1 Corinthians 4:17
  For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

 

1 Corinthians 11:2
   Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

 

2 Timothy 1:13
   Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

 

2 Timothy 3:14-15
 14.  But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
 15.  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[Elsie]

According to YOUR interpretation. I could make a very good arguement we're more true to the Biblical scriptures than you likely are.

According to MY knowledge, I can make a very good arguement that the Flds folks more true to the MORMON scriptures than you likely are.

[Elsie]

There is no "eternal covenant" of polygamy.

 

Oh?

---

 

 

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 132

 

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives; 26–27, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

 

  1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many ^awives and ^bconcubines—

  2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

  3 Therefore, ^aprepare thy heart to receive and ^bobey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

  4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting ^acovenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye ^bdamned; for no one can ^creject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

  5 For all who will have a ^ablessing at my hands shall abide the ^blaw which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.

  6 And as pertaining to the new and ^aeverlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my ^bglory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

  7 And verily I say unto you, that the ^aconditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, ^boaths, ^cvows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and ^dsealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is ^eanointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by ^frevelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this ^gpower (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this ^hpower in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the ⁱkeys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

  8 Behold, mine house is a house of ^aorder, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.

  9 Will I ^aaccept of an offering, saith the Lord, that is not made in my name?

  10 Or will I receive at your hands that which I have not ^aappointed?

  11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ^aordained unto you, before the world was?

  12 I am the Lord thy God; and I give unto you this commandment—that no man shall ^acome unto the Father but by me or by my word, which is my law, saith the Lord.

  13 And everything that is in the world, whether it be ordained of men, by ^athrones, or principalities, or powers, or things of name, whatsoever they may be, that are not by me or by my word, saith the Lord, shall be thrown down, and shall ^bnot remain after men are dead, neither in nor after the resurrection, saith the Lord your God.

  14 For whatsoever things remain are by me; and whatsoever things are not by me shall be shaken and destroyed.

  15 Therefore, if a ^aman marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world.

  16 Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in ^amarriage; but are appointed angels in ^bheaven, which angels are ministering ^cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

  17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are ^aangels of God forever and ever.

  18 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that ^acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

  19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man ^amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and ^beverlasting covenant, and it is ^csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of ^dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ^ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit ^fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s ^gBook of Life, that he shall commit no ^hmurder whereby to shed innocent ⁱblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their ^jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the ^kseeds forever and ever.

  20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from ^aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be ^bgods, because they have ^call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

  21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my ^alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.

  22 For ^astrait is the gate, and narrow the ^bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the ^clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

  23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that ^awhere I am ye shall be also.

  24 This is ^aeternal lives—to ^bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath ^csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

  25 ^aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the ^bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they ^creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

  26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the ^aHoly Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they ^bcommit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be ^cdelivered unto the buffetings of ^dSatan unto the day of ^eredemption, saith the Lord God.

  27 The ^ablasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall ^bnot be ^cforgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit ^dmurder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be ^edamned, saith the Lord.

  28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the ^alaw of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

  29 ^aAbraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

  30 ^aAbraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose ^bloins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the ^cstars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

  31 This promise is yours also, because ye are of ^aAbraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.

  32 Go ye, therefore, and do the ^aworks of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.

  33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.

  34 God ^acommanded Abraham, and Sarah gave ^bHagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

  35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, ^acommanded it.

  36 Abraham was ^acommanded to offer his son Isaac; nevertheless, it was written: Thou shalt not ^bkill. Abraham, however, did not refuse, and it was accounted unto him for ^crighteousness.

  37 Abraham received ^aconcubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and ^bJacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their ^cexaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

  38 David also received ^amany wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

  39 ^aDavid’s wives and concubines were ^bgiven unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the ^ckeys of this power; and in none of these things did he ^dsin against me save in the case of ^eUriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath ^ffallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I ^ggave them unto another, saith the Lord.

  40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an ^aappointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.

  41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man ^areceiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy ^banointing, she hath committed ^cadultery and shall be destroyed.

  42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has ^acommitted adultery.

  43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a ^avow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery.

  44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and ^agive her unto him that hath not committed ^badultery but hath been ^cfaithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.

  45 For I have conferred upon you the ^akeys and power of the priesthood, wherein I ^brestore all things, and make known unto you all things in due time.

  46 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you ^aseal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you ^bbind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you ^cremit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.

  47 And again, verily I say, whomsoever you bless I will bless, and whomsoever you curse I will ^acurse, saith the Lord; for I, the Lord, am thy God.

  48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you ^agive any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.

  49 For I am the Lord thy God, and will be ^awith thee even unto the ^bend of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I ^cseal upon you your ^dexaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your ^efather.

  50 Behold, I have seen your ^asacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your ^bsacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I ^caccepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac.

  51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to ^aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

  52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, ^areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

  53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been ^afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

  54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and ^acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be ^bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

  55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ^ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of ^beternal lives in the eternal worlds.

  56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid ^aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to ^brejoice.

  57 And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him; for ^aSatan ^bseeketh to destroy; for I am the Lord thy God, and he is my servant; and behold, and lo, I am with him, as I was with Abraham, thy father, even unto his ^cexaltation and glory.

  58 Now, as touching the law of the ^apriesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.

  59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was ^aAaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that ^bsent me, and I have endowed him with the ^ckeys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit ^dsin, and I will justify him.

  60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.

  61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse ^aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

  62 And if he have ^aten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

  63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to ^amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be ^bglorified.

  64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.

  65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take ^aHagar to wife.

  66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.

 

 

The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
© 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.
Rights and use information. Privacy policy.

---

---

There is no "eternal covenant" of polygamy.

 

Oh?  Just WHEN did GOD change HIS mind?

[Elsie]

 

 You do not build up your own beliefs by tearing down that of others.

  Oh?  Is that so?? 

---

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,

“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

 

 

And, continuing thru the years, the high ranking leaders of that Organization have done the same!

 

Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

 

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

 

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

 

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

 

Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).

 

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

 

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

 

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

 

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).

 

---

 

[Elsie]

I am always happy to discuss the mistaken interpretations of non-Mormons about LDS beliefs.

I am always happy to post the ACTUAL interpretations of MORMON leaders about LDS beliefs.

[DannyTN]

"According to YOUR interpretation."

According to the plain words of scripture. Jesus taught thre was no marriage in heaven, yet Joseph Smith taught there was. God said through the prophet Isaiah that there were no other Gods but Him and that there were none like Him, Smith taught a pluraity of Gods. Isaiah wrote that God is not a man, Smith taught God was once a man promoted to Godhood. etc, etc, etc...

"salvation"

Nice dodge and misrepresentation of your own and Christian beliefs. You believe that you can't get to heaven without works and without acceptance of Joseph Smith, and that it is Joseph Smith who sits in judgement on who gets to Heaven. You believe that Christ alone is not sufficient to make one perfect before God, but that one must earn his glory or whatever you want to call it. And you believe that one day you will be a God just like God.

Christians believe that there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation. That salvation is through grace not works. We don't believe that someone can mouth the words that they believe and be non-repentant and receive salvation. Repentance is necessary.

True faith produces works and thus works are evidence of faith. But faith and salvation comes first and are not the result of works, works are the result of faith. And depending on the believer they may not be prepared for works for some time. The fruit of the spirit do not grow overnight. The thief on the cross next to Jesus had no works, yet Jesus said he would be in paradise with Him. We do believe that Jesus made us "perfect forever" in the eyes of God at the moment of salvation.

Eternal life is not eternal if you can lose it. Christians can still commit sin and reap chastisement from the Lord and sin's own ugly rewards, but in the final analysis we are saved. "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." We don't have to do works to earn our salvation or earn enough points for temple privileges or any other nonsense. Christians do works because they love God.

"There is no "eternal covenant" of polygamy. "

Sorry, I don't think there is another way to read Doctine and Covenants 132. And apparently Brigham Young read it the same way.

Doctrine and Covenants 132 1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines— 2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter. 3 Therefore, aprepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same. 4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory. 5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world. 6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
Entire D&C found here

Brigham Young, the second LDS President stated, "Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned; and I will go still further, and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned." (Deseret News, November 14, 1855) There is no ambiguity there.

[count-your-change]

You tell’em! They don't have sacred underwear or putting their faces into hats for inspiration or an Egyptian funeral text fraudulently translated into a “Book of Abraham”. All the really good stuff.

[Tennessee Nana]

Even with decline in baptisms
____________________________________________

So everyone back to Adam has been accounted for and dead dunked already ???

WOW

[Godzilla]

Do you believe in temple practice?

modern lds temple practices are not even remotely paralleled by anything in the bible, or even in the bom for that matter.

Without Christ's sacrifice all the good works in the world would never save us. That is the meaning of salvation, not that you get a lifetime of get out of jail free cards from unrepented of, unreformed sin just because you declare Christ with your lips.

mormons levels of heaven place ALL humans (except for a select few) into the lowest level of heaven, described by your prophets as being - for lack of a better word - heavenly. This is called general salvation. However, more importantly is the clear lack of understanding regarding Christianity and salvation. At the time of acceptance of Christ's offering in the place of our sin is repentance. Contrary to mormon concepts - the bible is very clear that the gift of salvation is something that we cannot do anything TO EARN, but that it is a gift that keeps giving.

We believe it's a 2 way street, that Christ provided the way that brings us back to God. But we have to do our part too to make that grace active in our lives.

That is correct. This contrasts to mormonism that REQUIRES you do all these life changes (and then some) BEFORE Christ's sacrifice can be accomplished in you life. It places the cart before the horse.

Go read the Book of James to see how astonished he is at the idea someone would think you can commit gross sin and still somehow be brought back to live with God eternally.

Go back and read 1 John, ANYONE who claims they are sinless is a liar. But 1 John also tells us that God is Faithful and Just and will forgive us our sins and cleans us of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

Talk about a cult-like belief and horrible misinterpretation of the meaning of grace and Paul's explanation thereof.

What you describe is scriptural and those who do that are CINOs, not having accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord - their fruits show their false beliefs. OTOH, Christ's blood is effective immediately, completely and eternally - without reservation or cost/payment/works - upon that simple point of acceptance. After all, what did the thief on the cross DO to earn God's eternal forgiveness? So is mormonism TRUE to the Christian message of Salvation? The answer is still no, because the mormon message of 'salvation' is two fold. First, as pointed out above, it is a religion of works - to make one 'worthy' (after all you can do) as a debt that has to be paid before Jesus forgives your sin. Second is that the other reference to salvation - exaltation - repeats satan's lie that you can become a god.

There is no "eternal covenant" of polygamy.

I certainly hope this statement is out of ignorance of what D &C section 132 clearly states as well as the prophetic teachings of Smith, Young and others on this point.

Are you true to the way Christ organized his church with apostles? Nope.

Did Christ specify deacons? Did Christ specify 15 apostles? Did Christ specify a 'First Presidency'? Pretty hollow claim by mormonism.

I am always happy to discuss the mistaken interpretations of non-Mormons about LDS beliefs.

I am skeptical about your ability to discuss these 'mistaken' interpretations based upon the gross lack of knowledge regarding D&C Sect 132 and the historic teachings of mormonism on that point.

You do not build up your own beliefs by tearing down that of others. So I will not respond further because I see nothing constructive that will come out of it because of your mindset.

No doubt because you cannot sustain an in-detail examination of those beliefs in both a historical/contextual point as well as a direct comparison to scripture.

BTW - pass your advice to your missionaries who go around teaching that everyone but mormons are apostate and are not part of the true church. I guess that doesn't count as tearing down the beliefs of others huh.

[reaganaut]

The LDS Church will never not go extinct yet, it’s leader (Satan) will not let it.

[reaganaut]

From the article: As Elder M. Russell Ballard has said, “The Lord has never given us a mandate to be the biggest church — in fact, he has said our numbers will be comparatively few — but he has asked that we commit ourselves to living and sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ.”

- - - - - - -
Ummm...then WHY the HUGE emphasis on numbers (discussions, tracting, commitments, baptism) that are put on the LDS missionaries???

[reaganaut]

Worth a repost:

LDS followers are true to a church that is true to nothing.

[reaganaut]

These numbers aren’t hard to come by. They’re reported in the April LDS General Conference and printed in the church’s Ensign Magazine once a year.

- - - - - -
Actual numbers are hard to come by, since the LDS does not release the numbers of those who have left. Additionally, their convert numbers are not necessarily accurate since the report each April, the previous years numbers and by their own admission, convert retention rate past one year is less than 50%.

The 0% growth rate has been confirmed by someone in LDS headquaters, who stated that their only real growth is those born into the church.

There is also some question as to if those whose names are removed are still counted in the numbers, because their records are changed to “non-member” rather than destroyed.

Also, it has been said that “inactives” are not removed from the roles until after they would have been 110, regardless of date of death.

OTOH, Evangelical churches and ministries are reporting a large increase in those who are claiming to leave the LDS for a relationship with Jesus Christ. One Evangelical pastor I know in Utah states his congregation is almost 40% ex-LDS.

Other sites, like ex-mormon.org also show an increase in those leaving.

How the LDS finesses their numbers can be easily seen by how they have historically reported their membership numbers at General Conference.

They used to include number of deaths of members. They no longer do so.

They used to separate converts and BIC baptisms, they do not, which makes me question how many “converts” were actually Born LDS.

They used to have a separate category for the baptisms of “children of record”, that has disappeared. Some have speculated that they are now lumped together with converts.
Regarding the number of stakes/wards, I have read that they reorganize and consolidate stakes and call that a new stake. Also the numbers required for a ward/stake have decreased, so it looks like an increase. They have also closed a few missions (consolidated) but add the new mission to the old number.

The finessing of numbers has made it appear that the church is still growing, but outside sources tell another story, and now they are at least admitting it.

1974 -Statistical Report
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=c57f61cb2b86b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Church Units
*
Number of Stakes of Zion at the Close of 1974 675
*
Number of Wards 4,756
*
Number of Independent Branches in Stakes 1,195
*
Total Wards and Independent Branches in Stakes at the Close of the Year 5,951
*
Number of Mission Branches at the Close of the Year 1,822
*
Number of Full-time Missions at the End of the Year 113
Church Membership, December 31, 1974
*
In the Stakes 2,960,143
*
In the Missions 425,766
*
Total Membership 3,385,909
Church Growth During 1974
*
Children Blessed in Stakes and Missions 72,717
*
Children of Record Baptized in Stakes and Missions 47,234
*
Converts Baptized in Stakes and Missions 69,018

1985 - Statistical report
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=81edef960417b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Church Units
*
Number of stakes 1,582
*
Number of districts 352
*
Number of missions 188
*
Number of wards 10,168
*
Number of branches in stakes 2,766
*
Number of branches in missions 2,071
*
Number of sovereign countries with organized wards or branches 95
*
Number of territories, colonies, and possessions with organized wards or branches 20
(These statistics reflect an increase of 75 stakes and 542 wards and branches during 1985.)
Church Membership
*
Total membership at the close of 1985 5,920,000
Church Growth during 1985
*
Increase in children of Record 95,000
*
Children of record baptized 70,000
*
Converts baptized 197,640

1996 - Statistical Report
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=eda6dbdcc370c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Church units
*
Stakes 2,296
*
Districts 671
*
Missions 309
*
Wards and branches 23,528
These wards and branches are in 140 nations and in 21 territories and possessions.
Church membership
*
Total membership 9,694,549
*
Eight-year-olds baptized during 1996 81,017
*
Converts baptized during 1996 321,385

2007 - Statistical Report
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=4ff1558fcc599110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
Church Units
Stakes 2,790
Missions 348
Districts 618
Wards and Branches 27,827
Church Membership
Total Church Membership 13,193,999
Increase in Children of Record 93,698
Converts Baptized 279,218

[shibumi]

Yeah, you guys can laugh now, but just wait 'till the Main Battlestar arrives from Kolob to take all the demi-gods and demi-goddesses home!