Posted on 01/14/2010 12:12:26 PM PST by GonzoII
Thanks, Rob, for that link to the post on Pat Robertson at Get Religion. It does, as you say, provide useful context---context that the author rightly says should be mentioned by people reporting Rev. Robertson's remarks.
I do not know if others who have viewed the video clip perceive it as I do, but among the things that struck me was Robertson's evident sincerity. In this case, at least, I don't think he was being a showman. He seems to really believe in the "curse" and the legend of the "pact with the devil." Moreover, I didn't perceive any rancor toward the people of Haiti in his tone. On the contrary, he seemed sincere in asking for prayers and financial support for them. There was no suggestion of glee that the Haitians were "getting what they deserved," or anything like that. Belief in the "curse" sure seems wacky to me, but there it is.
This business calls to mind something I saw a few years ago in a documentary film about French peasants who, at enormous risk to themselves and their families, hid and rescued Jewish children during the Vichy years. A simple farm couple who had saved many children were asked by an interviewer why the catastrophe of the Holocaust had fallen on the Jews. It was, they said, because the Jews had rejected Christ. Like every other viewer, I suspect, I was stunned that people who had behaved so heroically toward Jewish victims could have believed such a thing. The interviewer then asked why they had risked their own lives to save Jewish victims. It was, the wife (if I recall correctly) said, because the children were in grave danger. And, the husband added, the Jews are God's chosen people. Gosh, the world is a complicated place, is it not?
Another issue that Robertson's remarks brought to mind is the question of when, if ever, it is appropriate to speculate about whether a catastrophe represents the judgment of God upon a people. My first impulse is to say, "never." Yes, yes, I know the Bible is filled with stories of catastrophes that represent the judgments of God, but (assuming that what Judaism and Christianity teach about biblical inspiration is true) it is one thing for an inspired writer to report that a catastrophe is a divine judgment; it is quite another thing for those of us who are not inspired to speculate on such matters. But then I recall the most profound speech in our national history---Lincoln's second inaugural address. Despite the familiarity of Lincolns words, they never lose the power to move:
"Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope--fervently do we pray--that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether."
What are we to make of that? I have no answer.
The brilliant historian of American slavery Eugene Genovese gave some lectures a few years ago that were published as a book entitled A Consuming Fire: The Fall of the Confederacy in the Mind of the White Christian South. Genovese asked the question, how did Christian supporters of secession account for the defeat of the Confederacy? He looked at sermons preached in southern churches after the civil war for the answer. He suspected that the preachers would see the defeat as a divine judgment on the South, but what sin would it be a judgment upon? Slavery? Or something else? Genovese found that preachers indeed viewed the defeat of the South in Old Testament terms. Lincoln was presented in many sermons as the equivalent of a Persian tyrant who was used by God to execute chastening judgment upon God's people for their sins and waywardness. The sin of which the South was guilty, though, was not slavery, as the preachers saw it. They continued to insist that slavery was sanctioned by the Bible. Rather, the southerners were guilty of practicing slavery in an unChristian manner. In particular, the southern slave system deprived the slaves of access to the saving Word of God (by denying them literacy), and it encouraged sexual immorality by, among other things, not upholding marriage among the slaves and by permitting slave families to be separated.
Posted by Robert George on January 14, 2010 at 11:51 AM
Prayers are up for Haiti......AND AMERICA!
"What are we to make of that? I have no answer."
May I suggest ST. ALPHONSUS LIGUORI Bob?
yo, people, you got bigger fish to fry than Pat Robertson.
Indeed I think many are losing the capacity to do so.
There is no excuse for Pat’s comments, other than possibly senility. He needs to get his shriveled butt off the chair of the 700 Club and start raising money for Haiti relief. Otherwise, he can keep his idiotic trap closed.
Especially if you're a Christian.
Has the United States been “blessed” by God?
If so, why would it be so difficult to believe that another country not be so blessed by God?
I’m not saying the earthquake itself was any kind of a curse, but the culture/society seems to be unblessed.
Putting Pat’s words into context make them even worse. The context is that he made the statements while many thousands of people were buried under rubble dying — women and children included. How many 700 Club viewers refrained from donating to Haiti disaster relief because they thought they would be donating to Satan himself ... because of what Pat says.
And by the way, speaking of nuance and context, maybe Pat needs to focus on that a little more when he reads scripture.
It’s obvious you’re reacting to the commentaries, and not to the actual words Pat Robertson spoke. It sure is fun to slam high-profile Christians, even out of ignorance.
Did you know that Pat Robertson’s ministry has been in Haiti for years, and is there currently? Did you know that they are on the ground, doing real work for the decent people of Haiti?
No, you didn’t, as your comment betrays. But now you do.
I guess I hold the intelligence and compassion of the average Christian in higher regard than do you.
Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house; and a messenger came to Job and said, 'The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, when the Sabeans raided them and took them away—indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!' While he was still speaking, another also came and said, 'The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!' While he was still speaking, another also came and said, 'The Chaldeans formed three bands, raided the camels and took them away, yes, and killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!' While he was still speaking, another also came and said, 'Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house, and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!' Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped. And he said:
'Naked I came from my mother’s womb,
And naked shall I return there.
The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the LORD.'
In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong." - Job 1:9-22
Huh? What “words” of his are offensive? Specifically?
Maybe check it out yourself here:
Last I checked, the Bible has something about loving the sinner while hating the sin. There’s also quite a bit about turning the other cheek, and otherwise showing how non-judgmental a Christian can be in their actions while still warning about the judgment of God for any sins the recipient of Christian charity might have committed. The story of Jesus preaching to the Samaritans comes to mind too.
Copy-pasting Scripture isn’t really helpful here. What point are you making? Are you saying that God has not blessed America, that we owe Him no credit for our prosperity? Or something else? I’m really not sure what you’re saying....
I’ve seen the actual clips from the show. I think even his sidekick is shocked at what he is muttering. At any rate, do YOU believe that this is God’s judgment for a mythical deal with the devil a couple centuries ago? DO YOU? Come on now ...
“We live in a soundbite age. Nuanced, in-depth analysis, open mindedness and fair assessments are no longer tolerated.”
I agree with what you said but I would call it a politically correct age. Anything the left and use to send off the reaction of “ten minutes of hate” against the politically incorrect target will be used.
We had a good show of the “ten minutes” here on Free Republic when Robertson’s comment was first exposed. But what Rotertson said is true about Haiti’s majority religion and National or societial deals made with dark power.
The problem I have with Robertson is his insistence of claiming natural disasters are God’s punishment against a people in the location because of this sin or that sin.
Sin is everywhere...so all natural disasters and problems can be attributed to the wrath of God. It is not right that he does this because he really does not know the mind of God. It would be better to use this opportunity of suffering to turn the Hatian people’s eyes towards the healing power and love of Jesus rather than focus on the deals that have been made up to this point with voodoo’s dark powers.
Many of us Americans have material abundance, you are correct. However, in many ways an argument can be made that America is just as bad off as Haiti, just in different ways. Maybe not materially, but ...
For your information, Pat’s Operation Blessing is already on the scene with relief efforts. It amazes me that people open their mouths to condemn someone without having facts before doing so.
And, the Bible does refer to curses. So, if people are upset with what Pat said, they need to take it up with God - it’s His Book. God specifically talks about blessings and curses. f
I'm sorry I assumed that such an obvious and simple passage would enlighten you.
Please show me the scripture that says that God will hit Haiti with an earthquake because there is a myth about them making a deal with the devil a couple centuries previous — or, for that matter, anything that even implies such a thing.
I like your description better. Well said.
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