Posted on 12/08/2009 11:41:52 AM PST by Gamecock
I just came from a funeral service for an aunt of mine who was a staunch Catholic. I came out of that religion about 25 years ago after reading for myself what the Bible had to say. My question surrounds the actuality of salvation for all the millions who still practice Mary worship and so forth. Knowing that one cannot serve two masters, I wonder at how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way, while they continue to believe that the church of Rome is solely responsible for their eternal welfare.
Answer:
Greetings in Christ Jesus our Lord and only Savior. Thank you for your question.
Unless a person is clearly outside the pale of the Christian faith, I do not believe that you can judge the "actuality" or "reality" of someone's salvation. You may judge the "credibility" of their faith; or you may question the "probability" of someone's salvation. You may also ask, as you have done, "how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way."
None of us, however, can truly say that we are perfect in knowledge or practice. We are always growing both in wisdom and in the grace of God. Is it possible for someone who prays to Mary to be a true Christian? In other words, can someone who is truly saved be in error on such an issue?
Conscious compromise of God's truth can be serious and deadly, but we also see from Scripture that in his mercy God may (and does) choose to accept less than perfect understanding and obedience, even of his own people. (Indeed, isn't the salvation and the perseverance of the saints dependent upon that fact?) There will be growth in understanding and holiness, but perfection must await our going to be with Jesus or His return to take us unto himself (see 1 John 3:2).
In the Old Testament, consider Asa in 1 Kings 15. He removed the idols from the land, but he allowed the high places to remain. The high places were clearly unacceptable. But the text states that Asa was loyal to the Lord his entire life. How could this be? Had he not seriously compromised?
What about the New Testament? Consider the Corinthians. Was the church at Corinth an exemplary church? Did they not have many doctrinal problems, e.g., concerning the Lord's Supper and the doctrine of the resurrection? (See 1 Cor. 11 and 1 Cor. 15.) Did even the apostles fully understand? Even though what they wrote was protected from error, did they not grow and mature in their own understanding and obedience? Wasn't it necessary at one point, for instance, for Paul to rebuke Peter for his inconsistency? (See Gal. 2.)
My point is not to defend the doctrinal aberrations of Rome. I do not believe such is possible. I think, however, that people generally follow their leaders. They learn from them; they consider their arguments rational and coherent.
For example, consider devotion to Mary. I read Jarislov Pellikan's Mary Through the Centuries and I cannot get past page 10 before I am wondering why the author is so blind to the fallacies of his arguments. However, if I were not being so critical and I were already predisposed to the position, then his arguments would perhaps seem irrefutable. So then, we should boldly, patiently, and compassionately discuss these matters with our loved ones, praying that the Holy Spirit will grant them more understanding.
Whatever we may judge in terms of the "actuality" or "probability" or "possibility" of a person's salvation at the end of life is, in the end, academic, for God is the one who can look at the heart and only he can truly judge. (He is the One, in fact, who has chosen his elect.) "It is appointed to man once to die, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27), but "Today is the day of salvation" (Heb. 3:13). We should work, therefore, the works of him who sent us while it is light and point our neighbors and loved ones to Christ.
For myself, I too was a Roman Catholic. In the past six months, I have attended the funeral of two uncles and one aunt whom I loved very much. I had opportunity at each funeral to speak a word of testimony regarding the Savior. I stood in the pulpit of the church in which I had served mass as a young boy and in my eulogies spoke of my faith in Christ.
Was it as detailed as I wish it could have been? No, but I am thankful for the opportunity God gave. Do I believe that my family members went to heaven? For one I have hope; for the others, I have little hope. Upon what is my hope based? It is always and only grounded in Christ and the Gospel.
We may define Christianity broadly by including as Christians all who confess the Apostles' Creed. We may define Christianity narrowly by including as Christians only those who confess our particular denominational creed. We need to exercise care, because, if we are too narrow, we may find ourselves excluding someone like Augustine. On the other hand, if we are too broad, we may find ourselves including many who should be excluded.
Personally, therefore, I do not judge. I have either greater or lesser hope. For example, I have greater hope for my Roman Catholic family members who ignorantly follow their leaders without thinking. Many times I find these to be at least open to discussion regarding the Gospel. However, I have lesser hope for people who are self-consciously Roman Catholic; that is, they understand the issues yet continue in the way of the Papacy.
I recommend that you read the book Come out from among Them by John Calvin. I found it very helpful and it addresses somewhat the question that you have raised.
I hope that my answer helps. You are free to write for clarification. May our Lord bless you.
Thank God the Catholic Church follows Christ.
It’s a sad state of affairs really. People don’t seem to be as civil anymore. Everybody is on edge and ready to jump on anybody for any stupid little reason.
I know what you mean when it comes to heaven forbid “understanding” someone. It is viewed as a weakness when you try to do that.
I am getting sick of all of the nonsense. We will get nowhere with shouting and name calling. You might as well just walk away from the discussion when that happens.
I worry that I might sound as though I am picking on Catholics when such is certainly not my intention. The problem is that, because of the cloud of sin that covers this world, we can have people with two very different views of Christ without truly knowing which is the objective truth. The objective truth does in fact exist; I’m not being a relativist here. But people have this great tendency to just assume that it is whatever they happen to believe and they think it ought to be obvious to those that truly do believe otherwise.
I believe Christ knows this and weeps. I honestly believe that the most important thing to Him is that we accept Him and follow Him to the best of our ability within our limited understanding of Him. I personally try to predicate my view on the very real possibility that I may in fact be wrong - if I am wrong, I hope to God that He will look upon my intentions and faith instead of my errors. Likewise, if I am to hope for such grace for myself, it is only reasonable that He will extend it to others with whom I disagree as well.
In the end, all we have that we can trust is God’s Mercy, upon which we are all utterly dependent. I think as Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christians we can all agree on that.
Sola Scriptura is not in Scripture.
The founding of the Catholic Church, the pillar and ground of the Truth, however, IS in Scripture.
I meant to say, "Likewise, if I am to hope for such grace for myself, it is only reasonable to hope that He will extend it to others with whom I disagree as well."
That is a diplomatic nicety, since the Anglicans like to consider themselves Catholics of a sort.
I feel the same way sometimes. I too hope that I am on the right path. If I am not, I do hope that God in his infinite mercy will take the fact that I have worshiped him the way I have because I believe it to be the correct way and because I love him.
God Bless you for being such an open and honest person. (Sorry if that sounded sappy)
I don't have a Church. Are you referring to the Catholic Church? It is not mine, it is Christ's, as its founder and leader.
Nah, I’m not offended.
I simply prefer precision in these matters.
Precision is quite nice but, in this world in which our abilities to reason and think with perfect precision are tainted by the effects of sin, we ought to be careful not to expect as much as we might otherwise like. :-)
Oh, I’m tainted. That’s for sure. ;OD
No worries, FRiend, we all are but thankfully there’s quite a bit of hope for each of us yet. ;-)
Except for the Amish. As I mentioned earlier, I just don’t trust them with their funny hats and horse-drawn carriages.
*snort*
“Would believing Mary has the power to take people from purgatory to heaven be over the line?
Would believing Mary can cause prayers to get special attention be over the line?
Would believing Mary can listen to millions of prayers simultaneously and discern which are worthy of special attention be over the line?
Would believing Mary was born with out sin and never sinned be over the line?
Where does this line get drawn?”
If a Catholic believes any of those things can be done by Mary without the Grace of God, then yes, they are all over the line. But Catholics don’t believe that Mary can do anything without the Grace of God. If you believe Mary can do these thing on her own you get kicked out.
Freegards
You wrote, “Every church feels that it is the one true Church.”
I don’t believe that. I simply believe that *Christ* saves us, regardless of denominational affiliation. I lift of Christ, not my church.
See my comment #603, where I prove beyond a doubt that the Roman Catholic church considers itself “Roman.” There’s no wiggle room.
You really need to get beyond your fear of the truth and embrace the fact that you are not a mere “catholic” (as are *ALL* believers in Christ, as they are members of the Church universal), but you are “Roman Catholic.”
The Catholic Church calls itself--wait for it--the Catholic Church.
All believers in Christ are part of the Church universal, the Catholic Church.
I have no fear of the truth...you're a lousy mind-reader (not to mention it violates the rules.
...you are “Roman Catholic.”
Keep insisting that, it will still not be so. I've never even been to Rome.
Yes it is and I never said I didn’t believe in Baptism. I do and believe every Christian should be baptized. But notice the verse says first make disciples of Christ, then baptism next. But the Bible makes it clear that salvation is by accepting Christ as our Savior over and over.
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