'Legacy Mormons' sowing global confusion

From the article: "I thought Mormons don't drink," they say. I tell them that while most of them don't, I am a "legacy Mormon" whose family was in the LDS Church before the mid-1840s, when the Word of Wisdom was amended to discourage alcohol consumption, and therefore that rule doesn't apply to us.

From the article: I usually provide a cornucopia of little-known Mormon beliefs and obscure parts of our history, telling them everything they've never heard about the church and affirming all the wild rumors that have been spread by our detractors.

From the article: On occasion I have had in-depth talks and philosophical debates with European intellectuals. They are intrigued by our apprentice program for godhood and want to know how they, too, can become master of another world in a far-off universe.

More on Mormonism's "apprentice program for godhood": "...through the modern Prophet Joseph Smith…having learned the drama and purpose of it all…Through him God has abundantly confirmed that man is the supreme creation…that man is the offspring of God; that for man, and man alone, was the earth created… and that, having within him the seeds of godhood and thus being a god in embryo, man has unlimited potential for progress and attainment.” (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, pg. ix)

Lds.org, the official Mormon Web site, still teaches this "man is a god-in-embryo" notion, citing yet another Lds "prophet" who was with Joseph Smith when he died, John Taylor (see TheOriginAndDestinyOfMankind :

In another point of view, we look at him as emanating from the Gods—as a God in embryo—as an eternal being who had an existence before he came here...What is [man]? He had his being in the eternal worlds; he existed before he came here. He is not only the son of man, but he is the son of God also. He is a God in embryo, and possesses within him a spark of that eternal flame which was struck from the blaze of God’s eternal fire in the eternal world, and is placed here upon the earth that he may possess true intelligence, true light, true knowledge,—that he may know himself—that he may know God...If we take man, he is said to have been made in the image of God, for the simple reason that he is a son of God, and being his son, he is, of course, his offspring, an emanation from God, in whose likeness, we are told, he is made. He did not originate from a chaotic mass of matter, moving or inert, but came forth possessing, in an embryonic state, all the faculties and powers of a God. And when he shall be perfected, and have progressed to maturity, he will be like his Father—a God, being indeed His offspring.

Now you know where that Mormon missionary or BYU football player swagger comes from: They are "gods in embryo" who will be worshipped, adored, prayed to, bowed down to one day as a fully grown-up god of their own planet!

From the article: We are variously labeled as non-Mormon, anti-Mormon, gay Mormon, Jack Mormon, excommunicated Mormon, active Mormon, apostate Mormon, and my favorite -- Utah County Mormon (our Taliban).

But, of course, just about all of these labels developed inside of Utah before spreading elsewhere. (He forgot "Cafeteria Mormon" and "temple Mormon" and TBM -- True-Believing Mormon.)

I am a “legacy Mormon” whose family was in the LDS Church before the mid-1840s, when the Word of Wisdom was amended to discourage alcohol consumption, and therefore that rule doesn’t apply to us.
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I did not know this...

And D&C 132 ????

Oh, my goodness.

This sounds kind of like my "Hereditary Republican" status ~ which pertains to the fact of having all 8 Great Great Grandfathers and some of the 4 Great Grandfathers in combat units in the Civil War.

Even had a Great Great Grandmother with Souvrn' Sympathies ride off into the distance with one of Morgan's raiders named Cheney. Believe she ended up in Nebraska ~ one of Dick's in-laws!

Some of these guys' parents had been Mormons of a kind.

This means I never have to say I'm sorry to any Liberal, and I can jus' give my middle finger to cousin Obama. No idea what his church is.

Colofornian,

Chet99 is to PitBull stories as Colofornian is to Mormon stories.

I worry about both of you.

This level of obsession is normally indicative of deep psychological issues.

Do you, really, not have anything better or more important in your life than to spend every waking moment trying to undermine a group of god-fearing, conservative, CHRISTIAN people?

BTW, RaceBannon, et al...my concern extends to you and everyone that will, no doubt, jump onto this thread and insist that Mormons, despite their belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and the Savior of Mankind, are not Christians.

And D&C 132 ????

You beat me to the thought.

And you think great intelligent thoughts ...

:)

BTW, RaceBannon, et al...my concern extends to you and everyone that will, no doubt, jump onto this thread and insist that Mormons, despite their belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and the Savior of Mankind, are not Christians.

Washi, before you post and run away, please provide your definitions of the terms. Define Jesus, Son of God, Savior of Mankind, etc.

trying to undermine a group of god-fearing, conservative, CHRISTIAN people?
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As far as I know, Colofornian has never dome this ...

You have any posts of his that would suggest such a thing ???

my concern extends to you and everyone that will, no doubt, jump onto this thread and insist that Mormons, despite their belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and the Savior of Mankind, are not Christians
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1. Mormons are not Christians..

2. Provide the printed mormon doctrines that record that mormons believe “in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and the Savior of Mankind,”

3. Provide any proof that mormons believe in the same Jesus that the Christians do...

Godzilla,

Post and run away?

I've been here for more than a decade.

You?

I'm not a particularly religious person. But I do know that a religion that believes in Jesus Christ, and that Jesus Christ died for our sins, is, indeed, a Christian religion.

Whether you believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are one and the same, or three separate beings (Acts 7:56) is a matter of orthodoxy, and not worth the derision that you and yours heap upon the Mormons (reminiscent of the battle between the "big-enders" and "small-enders" in Gulliver's Travels.)

I prefer to allow fellow conservative, moral, God-fearing, Christ believing, folks into my fold.

I usually provide a cornucopia of little-known Mormon beliefs and obscure parts of our history, telling them everything they've never heard about the church and affirming all the wild rumors that have been spread by our detractors.

Dang!!!

I most be a MORMON; too!

And LEGACY at that!

...I am a "legacy Mormon" whose family was in the LDS Church before the mid-1840s, when the Word of Wisdom was amended to discourage alcohol consumption...

AMENDED?

I thought GOD's rules were ETERNAL??

And D&C 132 ???? Used to study religions and cults a lot( I'm messinic Jewish/past family=Catholic conversos[converted from Judaism under torture or death]). I have an agede theology degree but seldom use it except when getting into some discussions such as this.

The D&C132 is one of the three books Mormons use, in this case "Doctrines and Covenants." The other two are Pearl of Great Price and the Mormon Bible . For more an easy short read from a Christian perspective is Dr Walter Martin's book "Kingdom of the Cults." p> The Mormon folks are great people and fervant as many know in evangilizing Mormonism. I love and old book by a Mormon to Christian convert named Granny Geer, "Mormonism, Mama, and me," in which is an autobiographical account of her life and love for the hearts of her Mormon people and I've used parts of her book to touch the hearts of Mormons. Hope this helps a little. Oh, I am NOT a scholar on Mormanism by any means and have forgotten a lot due to age I suppose. Age, is a very humbling experience and NOT for the young!

This level of obsession is normally indicative of deep psychological issues.

(Gee, and I thought people who spent billions of man-hours trying to dig up hidden or obscure birth & death genealogical records so that they could baptize dead people was obsessive...)

Personally, I'd rather be consumed with the living than dead corpses...But I suppose you've never wagged your scolding finger at other adults doing that, have you?

Or what about 60,000 Lds missionaries who pay their own way to spent 70-hour weeks for two years being obsessed about doorbells? Wanna explain why their porch "missionfield" is A-Ok by your standards but my keyboard one is suspect to you? Or is your bigoted bias extended only to religious expression when it comes from non-Mormon sources?

Joseph Smith was a "PRE-legacy Mormon" whose family was in the LDS Church before the mid-1830s, when the Word of GOD (the BIBLE) and the Book of MORMON was IGNORED about the One man/One wife thing.

This level of obsession is normally indicative of deep psychological issues.

But we ALL know that colofornian is NOT normal!

--MormonDude(At least we MORMONs are not obsessed with baptizing DEAD people!)

Do you, really, not have anything better or more important in your life than to spend every waking moment trying to undermine a group of god-fearing, conservative, CHRISTIAN people?

I'm with you!

I just HATE when this happens!!!

i thought they were christians

Not hardly!!!

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

And, continuing thru the years, the high ranking leaders of that Organization have done the same!

Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).

Only just lately have the MORMONs seem to WANT be called Christians now.

Can't find ANYTHING in their doctrine that has changed to warrent this attitude shift; however.

Or what about 60,000 Lds missionaries who pay their own way to spent 70-hour weeks for two years being obsessed about doorbells? Wanna explain why their porch "missionfield" is A-Ok by your standards but my keyboard one is suspect to you? Or is your bigoted bias extended only to religious expression when it comes from non-Mormon sources?

Their efforts are not aimed at undermining your specific religion.

Next question?

...trying to undermine a group of god-fearing, conservative, CHRISTIAN people? ...my concern extends to you and everyone that will, no doubt, jump onto this thread and insist that Mormons, despite their belief in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and the Savior of Mankind, are not Christians...I'm not a particularly religious person. But I do know that a religion that believes in Jesus Christ, and that Jesus Christ died for our sins, is, indeed, a Christian religion.

Well, I at least want to thank you for providing this opportunity to elaborate why it's important that we know and worship the true Christ.

The apostle Paul outlined that there was "another Christ": For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached... (2 Cor. 11:4)

Jesus Himself, in Matthew 24, said that in the end times people would come and proclaim that He had returned -- that these would be false messiahs.

The Mormon "Christ" is a pre-existent spirit, they say, like you or me...whose difference is...
(a) mere spiritual birth order--having been first; (b) was twice made a son of God via Mary; and (c) died for Adam's sin so folks could be resurrected (his role as Savior).

The true Messiah was born in Bethlehem as the Bible foretold and affirmed post-birth--not like the Mormon jesus of Mormon "scriptures" supposedly born in Jerusalem.

Other than that, the lds jesus is not the Son of God from eternity past. He worked his way up to godhood status. He's not an exalted God-become-man, but an exalted man-become-God. He was an elder spirit bro of Lucipher. Had you or your brother been "first" in that pre-existent spirit world birth order, he could have been Christ!!!

This "jesus" is foreign to the Bible. The Messiah of the Bible shared the glory with the Father in the beginning (John 17:5). This Jesus is THE Son of God, not just a son of God. And THE Son of God did not consider equality with His Father something he couldn't let go of while becoming a man (see Philippians 2). Phil. 2 makes it clear He was already divine, not just a "wannabe" God like Dear Ole Dad.

The True Jesus Christ: Savior, not a Saved Being

In contrast, the Mormon christ is but a "saved being"--a mere creature like dear ole Dad: "Christ is a saved being” (lds apostle McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257) “Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth ‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a saved being...” (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234) (Please also see McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation”)

I'm sorry. The real Christ is the Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42).

In contrast, the Mormon christ is one savior among many:

"...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (lds "prophet" John Taylor; Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163).

No, "saviors of the world" are not plentiful (1 John 4:14; John 4:42).

The Mormon "jesus" really didn't die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature...cause if we get to Mormon heaven we discover the Mormon doctrine of men are subject to punishment for their own sins--not Jesus as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." The flip side of this belief is that Jesus wasn't punished for our sins--men will be...Jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency."]

The True Jesus Christ: Creator of All Things & All Beings, Not Simply a Creature

The Jesus of the Bible created all things--including all angels...including even Lucipher (see Heb 1; John 1; Col. 1:16; see even D&C 93:9-10). This Jesus didn't atone for sins by sweating blood in the garden; He did it on Calvary as the Bible proclaims.

Conclusion:

The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!)

I worship this Messiah, just like God told the angels to do in Hebrews 1:6. And I challenge grassroots Mormons to defy their leaders when they tell them NOT to directly worship Jesus (see Mormon 7:7; 2 Nephi 25:29; 4 Nephi 4:37; 3 Nephi 11:17; 3 Nephi 17:10).

I directly pray to this Jesus as Stephen did in Acts (7:59) -- and even as the supposed Book of Mormon disciple characters DIRECTLY and repeatedly did to Jesus in 3 Nephi 19: 6-26...again -- a Mormon "scripture" de-emphasized & ignored by Mormon leaders).

Thomas calls Jesus his God in John 20:28; even the Nephite disciples likewise called Jesus “their Lord and God” (3 Nephi 19:18). D&C says Jesus is God (19:4; 62:1; etc.) Since there’s only one true God in the bible and in the LDS scriptures (for example, Pearl of Great Price says "no God besides me" (1:6), either Jesus is a false god or the one true God. As Jesus Christ is a God to Thomas (John 20:28) -- so Thomas has two gods?

Jesus Christ is my Lord, my Savior, my God! He is the Only Lord, the Only Savior, the Only True God!

Provide the printed mormon doctrines that record that mormons believe “in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and the Savior of Mankind,”

But He is just the START:

"We know something about our progenitors, and God has taught us how to be saviors for them by being baptized for them in the flesh, that they may live according to God in the Spirit."

--LDS Prophet John Taylor,

Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, 3/20/1870 (March 20,1870)

"...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..."

--Lds Prophet John Taylor,

Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163