Some Mormons may not understand Joseph's translation process

EVERYthing is missing; except......

The "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story.

No gold plates, no brass plates, no peep stones, no Urim and Thummim... only these "Caractors," not a single one of which is in the purported languages.

Smith's translation of the Caractors. According to Martin Harris (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64), "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,* and he said they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters."

Speak right up now in all truthfulness. Isn't it revealing how Smith started out making a stab at creating believable "caractors" but quckly gave up and produced nothing but squiggles, ending up wih a series of nothing more than crude little scribbles? Yet Professor Anthon supposedly translated them!

*Harris must have had two or three pieces of paper with him—one with characters and a translation of them (on the same paper or a separate one) and one with untranslated characters—quite likely the "Caractors." Some Mormon "scholars" have gone out on a limb, sawed it off, and knocked themselves out trying to translate from these true Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic characters a segment that would correspond with a verse from 1 Nephi.

Modern-day experts in Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. In 1829, any knowledge of these languages possessed by U.S. scholars would have been rudimentary at best. Expertise in them has vastly improved since then. So go ahead, do it. Get any modern expert in these languages to identify which of these "Caractors" are Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic. Better still, accept the claim of Mormon apologists that Anthon did indeed so testify and that his appraisal of the Caractors was correct. (Op. cit, pp. 73-75)

Save your money! Samples of Assyriac/Aramaic and Arabic writing:

.

What say you? Which of Smith's "Caractors" resemble the Assyriac and Arabic ones? No need to pay experts for their analysis. A child could accurately check this out. These writing systems have remained constant for well over 3000 years.

And then there’s the pesky problem of textual criticism when they change verses in the Bible to fit their theology,
such as John 1:1.

Added stuff... Changed stuff... Rearranged stuff... Removed stuff...

JOSEPH SMITH—MATTHEW

An extract from the translation of the Bible as revealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet in 1831: Matthew 23: 39 and chapter 24.

Jesus foretells the impending destruction of Jerusalem—He also discourses on the second coming of the Son of Man, and the destruction of the wicked.

1 ^aFor I say unto you, that ye shall not see me henceforth and know that I am he of whom it is written by the prophets, until ye shall say: Blessed is he who ^bcometh in the name of the Lord, in the clouds of heaven, and all the holy angels with him. Then understood his disciples that he should come again on the earth, after that he was glorified and ^ccrowned on the right hand of God.

2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple; and his disciples came to him, for to ^ahear him, saying: Master, show us concerning the buildings of the temple, as thou hast said—They shall be thrown down, and left unto you desolate.

3 And Jesus said unto them: See ye not all these things, and do ye not understand them? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here, upon this temple, one ^astone upon another that shall not be thrown down.

4 And Jesus left them, and went upon the Mount of Olives. And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be which thou hast said concerning the destruction of the temple, and the Jews; and what is the ^asign of thy ^bcoming, and of the ^cend of the world, or the destruction of the ^dwicked, which is the end of the world?

5 And Jesus answered, and said unto them: Take heed that no man deceive you;

6 For many shall come in my name, saying—I am ^aChrist—and shall deceive many;

7 Then shall they deliver you up to be ^aafflicted, and shall kill you, and ye shall be ^bhated of all nations, for my name’s sake;

8 And then shall many be ^aoffended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another;

9 And many ^afalse prophets shall arise, and shall deceive many;

10 And because iniquity shall abound, the ^alove of many shall wax cold;

11 But he that remaineth ^asteadfast and is not overcome, the same shall be saved.

12 When you, therefore, shall see the ^aabomination of ^bdesolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, concerning the destruction of ^cJerusalem, then you shall stand in the ^dholy place; whoso readeth let him understand.

13 Then let them who are in Judea flee into the ^amountains;

14 Let him who is on the housetop flee, and not return to take anything out of his house;

15 Neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes;

16 And wo unto them that are with ^achild, and unto them that give suck in those days;

17 Therefore, pray ye the Lord that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day;

18 For then, in those days, shall be great ^atribulation on the ^bJews, and upon the inhabitants of ^cJerusalem, such as was not before sent upon Israel, of God, since the beginning of their kingdom until this time; no, nor ever shall be sent again upon Israel.

19 All things which have befallen them are only the beginning of the sorrows which shall come upon them.

20 And except those days should be shortened, there should none of their flesh be ^asaved; but for the elect’s sake, according to the ^bcovenant, those days shall be shortened.

21 Behold, these things I have spoken unto you concerning the Jews; and again, after the tribulation of those days which shall come upon Jerusalem, if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe him not;

22 For in those days there shall also arise false ^aChrists, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant.

23 Behold, I speak these things unto you for the ^aelect’s sake; and you also shall hear of ^bwars, and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled, for all I have told you must come to pass; but the end is not yet.

24 Behold, I have told you before;

25 Wherefore, if they shall say unto you: Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not;

26 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the ^aeast, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

27 And now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the ^acarcass is, there will the eagles be ^bgathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth.

28 And they shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars.

29 Behold I speak for mine elect’s sake; for nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be ^afamines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

30 And again, because iniquity shall abound, the love of men shall wax ^acold; but he that shall not be overcome, the same shall be saved.

31 And again, this ^aGospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all ^bnations, and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked;

32 And again shall the ^aabomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, be fulfilled.

33 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the ^asun shall be ^bdarkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the ^cstars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

34 Verily, I say unto you, this ^ageneration, in which these things shall be shown forth, shall not pass away until all I have told you shall be fulfilled.

35 Although, the days will come, that heaven and earth shall pass away; yet my ^awords shall not pass away, but all shall be fulfilled.

36 And, as I said before, after the ^atribulation of those days, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth ^bmourn; and they shall see the ^cSon of Man ^dcoming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory;

37 And whoso ^atreasureth up my word, shall not be deceived, for the Son of Man shall ^bcome, and he shall send his ^cangels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the ^dremainder of his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

38 Now learn a parable of the ^afig-tree—When its branches are yet tender, and it begins to put forth leaves, you know that summer is nigh at hand;

39 So likewise, mine elect, when they shall see all these things, they shall know that he is near, even at the doors;

40 But of that day, and hour, no one ^aknoweth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only.

41 But as it was in the days of ^aNoah, so it shall be also at the coming of the Son of Man;

42 For it shall be with them, as it was in the days which were before the ^aflood; for until the day that Noah entered into the ark they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage;

43 And ^aknew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.

44 Then shall be fulfilled that which is written, that in the ^alast days, two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other ^bleft;

45 Two shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left;

46 And what I say unto one, I say unto all men; ^awatch, therefore, for you know not at what hour your Lord doth come.

47 But know this, if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to have been broken up, but would have been ready.

48 Therefore be ye also ^aready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh.

49 Who, then, is a ^afaithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

50 Blessed is that ^aservant whom his lord, when he cometh, shall find so doing; and verily I say unto you, he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

51 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart: My lord ^adelayeth his coming,

52 And shall begin to smite his fellow-servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken,

53 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

54 And shall cut him asunder, and shall appoint him his portion with the hypocrites; there shall be weeping and ^agnashing of teeth.

55 And thus cometh the ^aend of the wicked, according to the prophecy of Moses, saying: They shall be cut off from among the people; but the end of the earth is not yet, but by and by.

KJV Matthew 23:38-39 24:1-51

39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8. All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25. Behold, I have told you before.
26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

King James Version of the Holy Bible

Public domain

The presupposition is that Smith was actually receiving direct revelations from God. Anyone can claim that God is speaking to them. The insane asylums of full of such people. I have heard of a cat in a hat, but a rock in the hat has that beat. It seems that the sillier a cult becomes the more nuts it attracts. How any sane person could believe this manure is beyond me. It makes about as much sense as Scientology.

"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."

---Joseph Knight's journal.

"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.

(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),

"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,

as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,

and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."

"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"

reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881

in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:

"When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,

Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12

June 15, 1879, pp. 190-91.)

Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:

"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"

("A New Witness for Christ in America,"

Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)

"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."

---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.

AUTHORITY TO TRANSLATE.

The Prophet Joseph Smith claimed a divine appointment to make an inspired rendition or, as he termed it, a "new translation" of the Bible. This appointment can be illustrated by excerpts from his writings. After laboring off and on for ten months on the early chapters of Genesis, Joseph Smith received a revelation from the Lord on March 7, 1831, directing him to begin work on the New Testament: "It shall not be given unto you to know any further concerning this chapter, until the New Testament be translated, and in it all these things shall be made known; wherefore I give unto you that ye may now translate it" (D&C 45:60-61).

The manuscript of the JST shows that Joseph Smith began the translation of Matthew the next day. On December 1, 1831, the Prophet entered the following in his journal: "I resumed the translation of the Scriptures, and continued to labor in this branch of my calling with Elder Sidney Rigdon as my scribe" (HC 1:238-39). On February 16, 1832, he reported a revelation concerning the resurrection of the dead that includes the following reference to his divine commission to translate: "For while we [Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon] were doing the work of translation, which the Lord had appointed unto us, we came to the twenty-ninth verse of the fifth chapter of John" (D&C 76:15). On March 8, 1833, he reported the word of the Lord to him as follows: "And when you have finished the translation of the [Old Testament] prophets, you shall from thenceforth preside over the affairs of the church" (D&C 90:13). On May 6, 1833, Joseph Smith reported the following revelation: "It is my will that you should hasten to translate my scriptures" (D&C 93:53). Although not a complete list, the foregoing items illustrate Joseph Smith's claim to a divine appointment to translate the Old and New Testaments.

Jim Jones started with a small town in the Bay area,

Actually, he was a good ol' Hoosier, starting here in Indianapolis.

I go to church with a lady who did NOT blindly follow him to California.

(He was fairly orthodox here.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones

you should read up on nauvoo, it was a pretty amazing place for the time. and they built it out of swamp.

That's NOTHING!

Have you heard of DUBAI??

Built it out of SAND!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai

Latest Temple built in the MORMON Empire...

No...

Wait...

Godzilla, you are too precious to be sent to outer darkness!

Awww shuck, thanks! :)

http://www.blendtec.com/willitblend/videos.aspx?type=friends&video=byu

Thanks Elsie, I was looking for those quotes jusst last night. :)

Where’s your picture from the lds that shows ole Joey with his magic glasses that are supposed to be translating for him? I wonder how one goes from rocks to cool looking magical specs?

SZ

I think Sunnis and Shias think of each other as cults.

More like the SLC branch of MORMONism and the RLDS branch think of each other.

When the FOUNDER died, there was a power struggle to see who got to be the 'true' group and they split apart.

Sunnis and Shias or SLC and RLDS or both?

Dear Elise, I am certain that there is a point that you are trying to make; however, I am not certain what that is. The fundamental question is not whether Joseph Smith used a seer stone or looked up the butt hole of a cat for his revelation or translations. The question is whether or not Joseph Smith is a prophet receiving direct revelations from God or a false prophet. If you believe that Smith is nothing but a delusional con man, does it really matter what he claims? My concern is not about Smith but about all those that might be led into apostasy by following him.

both

My 'point' is that folks can see what info CAUSED JS to do what he claimed to have done; as well as the RESULTS of his actions.

THEN folks can make up their own minds; given that MUCH more data (evidence) has been supplied to them.

If you believe that Smith is nothing but a delusional con man, does it really matter what he claims?

So true.

But if one DOESN'T believe he's a con man; then that person DEFINITELY needs more info!!

I always thought Joe Smith was vomitting into that goofy hat of his? The seer stone theory is just a fairy tale cover-up. Most likely 'ol Joe was taken ill by some baaaad corn muffins or stale grits.

Poor hat.

Some Mormons may not understand Joseph's translation process

Some mormons don't understand that the translation process should not have lead to over 4000 changes to the bom over the years. David Whitmer and Martin Harris (two of the three Book of Mormon witnesses) described an "iron-clad" control of the translation process, claiming that the actual text was given word-for-word from God himself. In spite of their observations, however, recent research by Royal Skousen at Brigham Young University has proven that there were a few errors on the original manuscript due to transcription mistakes (such as writing the word "and" instead of the phonetically similar word "an"). Therefore, all textual errors beyond those (such as the ambiguities, anachronisms, and grammatical errors) ought to be problematic to those who believe, as Whitmer and Harris did, that the original text of the Book of Mormon came directly from God.

Mormon Historian B. H. Roberts has already stated that the first edition of the Book of Mormon was "singularly free from typographical errors" and that the printer could not be blamed for the many mistakes that are found in the Book of Mormon:

"That errors of grammar and faults in dictation do exist in the Book of Mormon (and more especially and abundantly in the first edition) must be conceded; and what is more, while some of the errors may be referred to inefficient proof-reading, such as is to be expected in a country printing establishment, yet such is the nature of the errors in question, and so interwoven are they throughout the diction of the Book, that they may not be disposed of by saying they result from inefficient proof-reading or referring them to the mischievous disposition of the 'typos' or the unfriendliness of the publishing house. The errors are constitutional in their character; they are of the web and woof of the style, and not such errors as may be classed as typographical. Indeed, the first edition of the Book of Mormon is SINGULARLY FREE FROM TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS." (Defense of the Faith, by B. H. Roberts, pp. 280-281; reprinted in A New Witness For Christ in America, by Francis W. Kirkham, Vol. 1, pp. 200-201)

More attestation to the accuracy of the initial translation is found here: "... we heard a voice from out of the bright light above us, saying, 'These plates have been revealed by the power of God, and they have been translated by the power of God. The translation of them which you have seen is correct, and I command you to bear record of what you now see and hear.'" (History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, Vol. 1, pp. 54-55)

Yet, inspite of the power of God, 4000+ changes have been made to the bom.

Too bad for the Mormons the Canon of Scripture was closed.

And this passage specifically excludes the Mormons from Christianity:

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Mormon Historian B. H. Roberts has already stated that the first edition of the Book of Mormon was "singularly free from typographical errors" and that the printer could not be blamed for the many mistakes that are found in the Book of Mormon:

I guess that BAD MEN have removed many 'true and precious' things from the BoM as well!