Some Mormons may not understand Joseph's translation process

Mormon Times ^ | Nov. 30, 2009 | Michael R. Ash

[Colofornian]

As we continue our discussion about the Book of Mormon translation, some members may be troubled that the process doesn't match their conceptions of how they thought the process worked. For members who were unaware of the seer stone in the hat, at least two questions or concerns may arise: 1) Is it strange that Joseph used a stone in a hat? 2) Why have we have always been told that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim?

To answer the first question we might also ask: Is it strange that a man could rise from the dead, walk on water, heal the lame, create the heavens, and answer the prayers of billions of people? There are basically two kinds of non-Mormons who reject LDS beliefs: A) those who believe that there is no God (or that if such a being exists he doesn't interact with humans), and B) those who believe that a supreme being exists and has communicated with mankind.

For those who don't believe in a God, all supernatural and miraculous events are automatically brushed aside as imaginary, impossible, etc. All spiritual experiences are seen as "strange," superstitious, and possibly the result of the evolutionary process of the mind. Joseph's translation process is just as strange as any other supernatural claim.

For those who believe that God can and has communicated with mankind, it seems hypocritical to summarily dismiss Joseph's method of translation because it doesn't fit with pre-conceived views of how God communicates. As with all spiritual claims, the only way to know if they come from God is to ask God for a witness.

For Mormons who think the seer stone in the hat is strange compared to a translation through the Nephite Interpreters, one might ask: Why is a translation through a stone outside of a hat (the Nephite Interpreters) acceptable, while a translation through a stone inside of a hat (the seer stone) is unusual? It should be obvious that if someone finds the one normal and the other odd, that such a perspective is based on nothing more than pre-conceived assumptions.

Number 2: Why have we have always been told that Joseph translated the book with the Urim and Thummim? The answer is simple: The early Saints referred to both the Interpreters and the seer stone as the "Urim and Thummim." The real problem is not that the seer stone is called the Urim and Thummim, but rather that when most modern members hear the phrase they typically envision the Interpreters. Why is this? The critics claim that most members don't know about the stone and the hat because the church hides the information. This claim, however, is false.

That Joseph used a seer stone in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon has been mentioned in several official church publications such as the Improvement Era, the Ensign, and even the Friend by such people as B.H. Roberts, Richard Lloyd Anderson, Neal A. Maxwell and Russell M. Nelson. It stretches the imagination to believe that the church would hide this information if it has been included in official church magazines.

So why are some members unfamiliar with the translation process? The answer is a bit more complex. This topic and the frequent but false claim that the church "hides its history from members" will be discussed in greater depth in a future issue.

Number 3: Why isn't the seer stone used today? In Joseph's world, he and many of his contemporaries believed that God could reveal things through a seer stone. Joseph's mind was already open and prepared for revelation and a translation process through the Urim and Thummin. The Lord utilized Joseph's worldview to help restore the gospel. If Joseph had been skeptical of seer stones, he may not have been receptive to translating the Book of Mormon.

As Joseph continued to receive more revelations, he discovered that the seer stone was merely an elementary tool for teaching him how to focus his thoughts on the things of God. By the time he was working on the Inspired Version of the New Testament, he no longer needed the seer stone. Joseph apparently told Orson Pratt that the Lord gave him the Urim and Thummim "when he was inexperienced in the Spirit of inspiration. But now he had advanced so far that he understood the operations of that Spirit and did not need the assistance of that instrument," (Richard L. Anderson, BYU Studies 24:4, 489-560).

[Colofornian]

From the commentary: For members who were unaware of the seer stone in the hat, at least two questions or concerns may arise: 1) Is it strange that Joseph used a stone in a hat? 2) Why have we have always been told that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim?

Oh sure. An angel led Smith to some gold plates. Which were totally irrelevant 'cause Smith never read them in his supposed "translation" of the Book of Mormon. (And even had he read them, he knew not the language!)

So why bother leading this pimply-faced teen-ager to some "gold plates" that were never retained? What good were they if all Smith needed was a rock stuck in a hat to begin with? Irrelevant. Useless. A 100% waste of the supposed time Nephi took to carve them out. 'Cause nobody's actually accessed them for any real direct "translation."

Why is this simple concept so complicated for Mormons to understand?

Also, what purpose did this hat serve?
Have the Mormons retained it as a sacred relic?
Where's the urim & thummim?
Conveniently gone as well?
Did it run out of its 19th-century "batteries"?

[doc1019]

Some Mormons may not understand Joseph's translation process

And a whole world full of non-Mormons as well. ;-)

[mgstarr]

Romney for President...... Oh, nevermind.

[Tennessee Nana]

Some Mormons may not understand Joseph’s translation process
_______________________________________________________

OK Nana will teach the little grasshoppers...

Children for this project we need the following items:

1 table
1 chair
1 stove top hat
1 rock
1 human head

Instructions:

Place the hat on the desk.
Place the rock in the hat.
Place the chair beside the table and sit in it.
Place your face in the hat until you cannot see any light.
No peeking.

Write a papragraph explaining why a grown man would do such a dumb thing and think he could fool other people into thinking he was translating from Reformed Egyptian.

[Tennessee Nana]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Better make that a stove pipe hat ...

Stove Top would make a good stuffing for a hat in lew of brains but it wasnt invented yet...

[RobRoy]

>>Some Mormons may not understand Joseph’s translation process<<

I’ll say they don’t. And when they finally do, they join ex-mormons for Jesus.

[Alex Murphy]

For members who were unaware of the seer stone in the hat, at least two questions or concerns may arise: 1) Is it strange that Joseph used a stone in a hat? 2) Why have we have always been told that Joseph used the Urim and Thummim?

[sirchtruth]

It's hard to find this level of B.S. about someone else's B.S.!

For heavens sakes, get a clue you dupped cult worshipers!

[sirchtruth]

It's hard to find this level of B.S. about someone else's B.S.!

For heavens sakes, get a clue you duped cult worshipers!

[lurk]

Most Mormons don’t know about the stone in the hat. If you told them, they’d tell you you were crackers or lying.

The real problem that the hat translation presents is in the finished product of the Book of Mormon. If the stone only gave a new sentence after Oliver wrote it down word and punctuation perfect, then why have there been 3915 changes in the BOM(not including spelling and punctuation) since the 1830 edition?

[Salvavida]

The Mormons didn’t get the memo that the canon of Scripture was closed in the 4th century......and God doesn’t change His mind.

And then there’s the pesky problem of textual criticism when they change verses in the Bible to fit their theology,
such as John 1:1.

[beebuster2000]

say what you want about the hat, the stone, etc etc.

personally, i dont find that stuff any more or less believable than sacred things in other religions.

i read a biography about joseph smith recently and he was an amazing guy. read about the cities he built out of nothing and the society he created. he started with nothing in the middle of nowhere in upstate new york.

say what you want, the guy had it going on , no question.

[Colofornian]

Instructions:
Place the hat on the desk.
Place the rock in the hat.
Place the chair beside the table and sit in it.
Place your face in the hat until you cannot see any light.
No peeking.

Write a papragraph explaining why a grown man would do such a dumb thing and think he could fool other people into thinking he was translating from Reformed Egyptian.

Now, now, Nana, perhaps you just didn't digest enough of what this apologist was trying to say. For example:

From the commentary: To answer the first question we might also ask: Is it strange that a man could rise from the dead, walk on water, heal the lame, create the heavens, and answer the prayers of billions of people?

Oh. On second thought, you're right, again, Nana.

Ash's original angle made me ask, why are Mormon apologists and their allies so quick to use this argument? (I've actually seen similar versions among nominal FR Catholics & other vague religionists defending Mormon beliefs...they'll say, "Well, some of my Christian beliefs are kind of strange, too, so if we're going to judge a belief or event upon weirdness, then we're all subject to the same crit.")

Now, what's the problem with this argument?

Well, first of all, my Q to such people is, "Do you consider Jesus of Nazareth, the historical figure in the Bible, 'weird' or 'strange?'" I would think most of the people making the argument above might respond something to effect of, "Well, He's certainly unusual and unique, but I wouldn't go so far as to label him 'weird.'"

To which I'd say, "Exactly." The examples Ash gives here: rising from the dead, walking on water, and healing the lame were all things done openly before at least 6 or 7 (walking on water) to 500 (how many Jesus appeared to post-resurrection). These were highly unusual events, but once Jesus did them as precedents, we no longer consider it "weird." The resurrection of us all, for example, is a widely shared belief, as is the other couple of examples Ash gave (Jesus answering the prayers of billions and creating the heavens).

But now Ash wants to put what Joseph Smith did, looking at a rock in a hat, into the same category as Jesus walking on water, rising from the dead, healing, creating, and answering prayers? Really?
Where do we have any precedent for Jesus receiving orders from Father by opening up some "viewfinder" on a rock & then sticking it into a hat?
Why would a hat environment be so "sacred" for either Smith or his god, anyway, given the Jewish apostles before him, like Paul, to not even honor hats?
Didn't Paul tell the Corinthians: A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God... (1 Cor. 11:7)

[Colofornian]

personally, i dont find that stuff any more or less believable than sacred things in other religions

Ah, how prophetic of me. I didn't read this post of yours, yet anticipated it & posted it within the same minute(see post #13 as my "pre-response" to your comment here)

[Tennessee Nana]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Then again they were later called a top hat..

Song Maestro please...

Putting on my Top hat
(as sung by Joey Smith)

Putting on my top hat
The gold plates to explain
Putting on my top hat
I’m translating again

Got the missus with me
Writtin up a storm
This seems to work for me, though
She says its not the norm

Putting on my top hat
Face kiss rock again
Harris asks a question
Chipped tooth I’m now in pain

I mumble that I’m ailing
he writes just what he hears
hes got the guys a’sailing
Throughout the world for years.

A good idea but wait there
We can improve on that
lets say they got to somewhere
In just months due my hat

Putting on my Top hat
Lets have a war or three
Emma wheres the whisky?
Think beeter on my knees

A Mormon and a Nephi
An Alma thats a girl
We’re nearly finished Jacob
My how the time does fly

Emma run and get me
A headache powder please
This silly rock is hurting
My head, my eyes, my knees

Cumorah Hill sounds ducky
Lets add a tarpon too
And since I’m feeling lucky
Horses, elephants a few

Putting on my top hat
Is there any more?
Martin we need an ending
The start is quite a bore

Putting on my Top Hat
Lets sell this in the North
No Canada dont like it
And wont pay what its worth.

[beebuster2000]

i see.

perhaps a couple other examples that come to mind. burning bushes, parting seas, etc etc. i dont see a hat as inconsistent with that. not to mention the “miracles” from modern times that are cited when saints are made. check out some of those stories.

and the “seer stones” were well known and used by the old testament jews, smith didnt invent that.

[beebuster2000]

havent read it, but apparantly the bible itelf contains reference to the stones:

1 Samuel 14:41 — in the Books of Samuel is regarded by biblical scholars as key to understanding the Urim and Thummim[

[Tennessee Nana]

Check # 15 for the lyrics i just wrote on the fly

:)

[Nosterrex]

The presupposition is that Smith was actually receiving direct revelations from God. Anyone can claim that God is speaking to them. The insane asylums of full of such people. I have heard of a cat in a hat, but a rock in the hat has that beat. It seems that the sillier a cult becomes the more nuts it attracts. How any sane person could believe this manure is beyond me. It makes about as much sense as Scientology.

[Colofornian]

read about the cities he built out of nothing and the society he created. he started with nothing in the middle of nowhere in upstate new york.

Rev. Moon was persecuted & imprisoned by the communists in Korea, & before you knew it, he owned the Washington Times & a slew of other businesses! (And now we know his followers as "Moonies")
Jim Jones started with a small town in the Bay area, and before you knew it, he had expanded to large acreages in Guyana after becoming a key civic leader in the Bay Area. (You've heard all about the coolaid in Jonestown, haven't you?)
Shall I go on?

As for the societies he created, well, that's a myth. He moved first to Ohio, but he didn't create the community of Kirtland, OH. In fact, he fled that town in the middle of the night because the bank he started wasn't solvent. (He literally issued $3 bills, giving us the phrase, "As phony as a $3 bill.")

The Missouri experience? Smith sent others ahead to populate MO while he remained in OH. He wasn't responsible for setting up those small, temp communities -- others were. It was a non-Mormon who helped to carve out a new county for Lds in MO in 1838.

So now we're down only to Nauvoo. Oh, sure, Smith was directly involved in creating Nauvoo. But what kind of a "society" did he create? (All I can say is that if you want to go to a community where "Mayor Smith" orders his henchmen to go smash your opposition printing press because he didn't like your critiques of him, then quick, head off to those Phillippine compounds where they've surrounded these regional lords for killing off the opposition party's family -- & about 15 journalists in the process!).