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Modernism and the Magisterium
gkupsidedown.blogspot.com ^ | Monday, November 23, 2009 | Fr. Longenecker

Posted on 11/23/2009 9:20:18 PM PST by GonzoII

Modernism and the Magisterium


After analyzing the modernism in the Anglican Church it was pointed out that there's plenty of modernism in the Catholic Church too. True enough, and because blog posts should be short and punchy, I left this issue for another day.

It is true that all the problems I outlined in the post on Modernism in the Anglican Church are present in the Catholic Church. In many ways the effects have been even more devastating. At least the Anglicans with their good taste have preserved beautiful liturgy, architecture and sacred music in the midst of the modernism. Many Catholics have been even more gung ho on the dumbing down of Christianity, the vulgarization of the liturgy, art and architecture that is the philosophical offspring of modernism. The moral crisis among Catholic clergy which has caused so much pain and scandal is the direct effect of mixing clerical celibacy (which modernists simply cannot understand) with modernism and the moral relativism of the sexual revolution. The resulting cocktail was disastrously poisonous.

However, there are two distinct differences in the circumstances of Anglicanism and Catholicism. The first is that, while the Catholics have fallen into the same moral morass as Anglicanism, what they are doing has not been condoned and sanctioned by the Church. Yes, there are Catholic homosexual priests, Catholic bishops and priests and people who support women's ordination, Catholic people who favor abortion, remarriage after divorce etc. etc. The Church teaching, however, is clear and uncompromising. So in the Catholic Church you find Church teaching which is firm and clear and traditional, but some Catholics dissent and have their own opinion which is liberal. In the Anglican Church is is virtually the reverse: the Church teaching is either non existent, open ended or actually sanctions the modernist stance but you have individual Anglicans who choose to hold to the traditional, historic faith.

The second fact, on which the first is built is that while Catholics are besieged by modernism, we still have the magisterium of the Church which repudiates modernism and offers the guide for authentic historic Christianity in the world today. We have a Catechism which states the church's teaching clearly and positively. The Popes hold the line, defending, defining and teaching the faith in the face of modernism, and in opposition to it. The fact of the matter is that the Catholic Church defends historic Christianity and those of the faithful who go adrift do so knowingly. They are sheep who have strayed from the fold and from the Good Shepherd.

Individual Anglicans, on the other hand, are sheep without a shepherd. Without a clear authority structure they must make up their own minds, and while there is certainly some value in such independence of mind and action, it must be said that if one is going on a journey it would be possible to wander to the destination asking directions along the way, but it would be more sensible to use a map.

This brings me to the accusation that many non-Catholics make about Catholics: that we are unthinking zombie clones who are drinking the Kool-Aid and marching in lock step behind the Master. To be sure there are some Catholics who switch off their brains (as do many modernists) but this is not the expectation or the ideal. What is the proper relationship to dogma and infallible authority? It must be that the dogma, the moral code and the infallible authority are means to an end--they are not the end in themselves.

For a Catholic the dogma and the moral code which is given by the infallible authority of the Church is simply the ladder on which we climb. They are the map for the journey; the signposts on the way. They are vitally important, but it is the pilgrimage to heaven which is most important, and the final goal in this life is to get to the point where we walk on this pilgrimage so formed and guided by the dogmas and moral code that we no longer rely on them. We have learned to run on the path of God's perfection with the perfect delight of love, doing all those things which were once burdensome with the simplicity of freedom and the beauty of holiness.


TOPICS: Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Theology
KEYWORDS: anglican; catholic; frlongenecker; modernism
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To: wagglebee
Are you unwilling to answer my questions?

Your questions are not germane.

LOL

That's a YES.

And it makes sense, on that level: if you denied the Blessed Trinity but still wanted to be accepted among a cadre of anti-Catholic bigots, would you not avoid the topic, hoping it went unnoticed?

41 posted on 11/24/2009 10:52:07 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski

Yep, the logical outcome of YOPIOS will always be the rejection of EVERYTHING except that which is intellectually simplistic or emotionally uplifting.


42 posted on 11/24/2009 10:53:12 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Petronski
And it makes sense, on that level: if you denied the Blessed Trinity but still wanted to be accepted among a cadre of anti-Catholic bigots, would you not avoid the topic, hoping it went unnoticed?

Even beyond avoiding the question about the Trinity, it becomes nearly impossible to keep favor among the anti-Catholic bigots when you suggest that the burnt offerings of the Old Testament and the Passover were metaphors.

43 posted on 11/24/2009 10:55:52 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
...the burnt offerings of the Old Testament and the Passover were metaphors.

A ship can go quite far off course without a rudder.

44 posted on 11/24/2009 11:00:39 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
U-2012>Did YHvH permit the destruction of the Temple?

Did all Temple worship end in 70 CE ?

And did HaShem permit the destruction of the Temple by the Babylonians centuries before that? Did Temple worship end at that time as well? Wow. I guess the messiah came a long, long time ago.

If you were to ever read the Torah you would see that it warns numerous times that apostasy from the Torah (not "rejecting the messiah") would be punished by exile. Exile implied the non-existence of Temple worship. However, it also promised that in the end Israel would be returned to its land (hence the resumption of Temple worship).

I don't suppose you ever noticed that there were periods during the forty years in the midbar when the sacrificial service wasn't performed?

Why did YHvH permit the babylonian captivity ?

Failure to observe the sabbatical years of fallow.
The Prophets understood and discussed this fact.

Daniel identified the exact day of the coming of the Messiah.
It is known to the followers of the Christ as Palm Sunday.
The Pharisees rejected the suffering servant;
they wanted the King of the line of David only.

Because of the rejection, the gentile nations were
grafted in until the time of Jacob's trouble to produce jealousy .

YHvH brought His People back into the land as described in
the beginning as dry bones. Daniel's prophesy of the final week of years is imminent. The rejection of the Temple Mount by Moshe Dyan in 1967
produced a forty period of testing.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
45 posted on 11/24/2009 11:02:07 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: wagglebee

The use of St. Augustine to deny the Blessed Trinity has got to be some kind of new low.


46 posted on 11/24/2009 11:02:57 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012
Daniel's prophesy of the final week of years is imminent.

Define "imminent." Use numbers or calendar dates if you think you can.

47 posted on 11/24/2009 11:04:53 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: wagglebee
I suggest you familiarize yourself with a Messianic Passover Haggadah,

It will explain both the four cups of wine and the afikomen.

Be aware that Yah'shua only drank three of the four cups at the Last Passover.

He said He would drink the fourth cup in heaven with us
at the marriage feast of the Lamb.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

48 posted on 11/24/2009 11:11:26 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Petronski
The use of St. Augustine to deny the Blessed Trinity has got to be some kind of new low.

It makes about as much sense as saying that Isaac Newton didn't believe in gravity.

49 posted on 11/24/2009 11:18:25 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012; Petronski
I suggest you familiarize yourself with a Messianic Passover Haggadah,
It will explain both the four cups of wine and the afikomen.
Be aware that Yah'shua only drank three of the four cups at the Last Passover.
He said He would drink the fourth cup in heaven with us at the marriage feast of the Lamb.

Thanks, but I'll stick with what the Church has practiced for nearly two thousand years and reject your 19th century new age theories.

50 posted on 11/24/2009 11:32:31 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; Lee N. Field; the_conscience; topcat54; HarleyD; ...
I find it strange and ironic that a Catholic is attacking metaphor when the Catholic Church has exalted metaphor over literal meaning for two thousand years, to the point that nowadays its clergy, theologians, and laity more often than not dismiss the "old testament" as "mythology."

Yep. We've heard RCs dismiss the OT on this forum for years as if over time God somehow changed His very nature.

True, higher criticism was invented by liberal Protestants. However, for some reason Catholics and Eastern Orthodox have taken this Protestant-invented theory to their hearts almost to the point of insisting on it as "proof" that one is not a "fundie."

There is a place for German higher criticism when debunking the superstition of the papacy, such as the RCC's literal interpretation of the Lord's Supper. The scientific method can be applicable to theology in that abstract thinking is good. It is what separates us from the animals. But too much abstract thinking and you float into the sky. You become gnostic.

Our faith should be verifiable and repeatable. If I do this, this will happen. We are to "test the spirits" to know the truth. Empirical evidence of men's salvation is discernible according to a man's good fruit or lack of it.

But the trap of higher criticism is that we tend to see life as bipolar and so we say it's either all metaphor or all literal, but Scripture contains both. Methuselah may have lived 900 years, but that could be a metaphor. God really did speak to Moses and give him stone tablets of the 10 Commandments and that is a literal fact.

Like so much, the RCC ridicules many of the facts of God's word while inventing traditions of their own making.

51 posted on 11/24/2009 11:34:32 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Petronski
Define "imminent."

In my dictionary it states:

imminent |ˈimənənt|
adjective
1 about to happen : they were in imminent danger of being swept away.
2 archaic overhanging.

52 posted on 11/24/2009 11:34:57 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Petronski
Define "imminent." Use numbers or calendar dates if you think you can.

On December 22, 2012 they will try to buy themselves another week and a half, but on January 1, 2013 the whole ruse will be up.

53 posted on 11/24/2009 11:37:24 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Quix
Actually, I find a lot of evidence in the New Testament and certainly from my experience that more than suggests God has a strong hostility to efforts to reduce TOUCHING HIM, TOUCHING HIS HEART, FACILITATING HIS PRESENCE . . . BY . . . RITUAL.

Amen!

"Man`s mind is like a store of idolatry and superstition; so much so that if a man believes his own mind it is certain that he will forsake God and forge some idol in his own brain." -- John Calvin, on the work of the Holy Spirit.

54 posted on 11/24/2009 11:46:45 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: wagglebee
U-2012>I suggest you familiarize yourself with a Messianic Passover Haggadah,

It will explain both the four cups of wine and the afikomen.

Be aware that Yah'shua only drank three of the four cups at the Last Passover.

He said He would drink the fourth cup in heaven with us at the marriage feast of the Lamb.

Thanks, but I'll stick with what the Church has practiced for nearly two thousand years and reject your 19th century new age theories.

If you review the scriptures and the early ante-Nicene writers
you will find the followers of the Christ celebrated YHvH's Passover.

See Quartodecimanism

Passover was celebrated by the followers of the Christ
until Constantine's Roman church condemned
the practice of celebrating YHvH's Passover
replacing it with the Pagan feast of Easter.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
55 posted on 11/24/2009 11:51:18 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Steelfish; UriÂ’el-2012; wagglebee; firebrand; Quix; Running On Empty; betty boop; Petronski
I think one of the biggest issues comes in with a lack of understanding of the metaphysical differences between what we see and what actually happens in a spiritual sense.

For example, it appears on the bare surface, that during the Divine Liturgies (either Eastern or Western), that in each celebration of the Eucharist, we are accomplishing an individual paschal sacrifice. That is understandable. But that is not the case.

What is the case is that the individual sacrifices at the temple were figures of the reality of the true paschal sacrifice where Christ (the high priest) offered himself (the paschal lamb) once and for all. And, in the earthly manner of reckoning time, that happened some 2000 years ago.

However, in heaven, time is not reckoned like it is with us. But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Pet 3:8)

If one could look into heaven and see what was going on, though, one would still see the mortally wounded Lamb, despite His wounds, being fully alive (See, for example, Rev 5:6).

In a valid Divine Liturgy, this reality is brought "to life" as we pray that the Holy Spirit accept our offerings of bread and wine (as in what Abraham offered Melchizedek) and change them into the Body and Blood of the Lamb.

You can see this through the words of the Epiclesis:

In humble prayer we ask you, almighty God: command that these gifts be borne by the hands of your holy Angel to your altar on high in the sight of your divine majesty, so that all of us who through this participation at the altar receive the most holy Body and Blood of your Son may be filled with every grace and heavenly blessing.

The point being that what happened before are actually the parables to Calvary (Heb 9). What we see at the Mass is bringing down to earth of the reality of what is in heaven. Not a metaphor, not a parable, but the real thing...but in two separate and distinct temporal planes.

56 posted on 11/24/2009 11:55:33 AM PST by markomalley (Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012
Passover was celebrated by the followers of the Christ until Constantine's Roman church condemned the practice of celebrating YHvH's Passover replacing it with the Pagan feast of Easter.

St. Constantine was never Pope of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church did not begin using the title "pontiff" until the 7th or 8th century. Christ Himself (the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity) replaced Passover with the Holy Eucharist at the Last Supper. The Catholic Church celebrates a Christian Easter, remembering with great joy that Sunday morning when Christ was Resurrected!

Just what is a pagan Easter, anyway? Too much ham and chocolate?

57 posted on 11/24/2009 11:56:37 AM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012; Petronski
If you review the scriptures and the early ante-Nicene writers you will find the followers of the Christ celebrated YHvH's Passover.

No, the early Christians who were born Jews celebrated Passover AND they celebrated the Holy Eucharist.

Passover was celebrated by the followers of the Christ until Constantine's Roman church condemned the practice of celebrating YHvH's Passover replacing it with the Pagan feast of Easter.

Wrong. Jewish Christians in the early Church celebrated Passover and the Holy Eucharist.

Constantine BECAME a Christian (he was born a pagan), but had no influence on Church theology and he certainly didn't start any religious movement.

I'm curious, do you ever go to threads started by anti-Catholic bigots (by this I mean certain Calvinists, Pentecostals and such) on FR and tell them that their belief in the Easter Resurrection is pagan? Do you tell the anti-Catholic bigots that the Holy Trinity is pagan? If so, could you give me links to these threads?

58 posted on 11/24/2009 12:04:18 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: markomalley
There are no bounds once you accept allegory.

Metaphor however provides insight.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

59 posted on 11/24/2009 12:04:36 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: wagglebee
Since you are a newcomer to FR, you might not know that.

FR has tools to accomplish what you wish.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

60 posted on 11/24/2009 12:08:21 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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