Pope John Paul II 'whipped himself in remorse for sins': Open discussion / Not caucus

Telegraph UK ^ | 23 Nov 2009 | Nick Pisa

[Mr Rogers]

Sister Sobodka said: "Several times he (Pope John Paul) would put himself through bodily penance.

"We would hear it – we were in the next room at Castel Gandolfo. You could hear the sound of the blows when he flagellate himself. He did it when he was still capable of moving on his own."

The flagellation is also confirmed by another bishop who has given testimony. Emery Kabongo was a secretary for Pope John Paul.

"He would punish himself and in particular just before he ordained bishops and priests," he said.

"I never actually saw it myself but several people told me about it."

Self flagellation is sometimes used by devoted Catholics as it reminds them of the whipping endured by Christ at the hands of the Romans before he was crucified.

[Mr Rogers]

From Wiki:

An outstanding saint in the nineteenth century is St. Jean Vianney who converted hundreds of people in laicist France. Pope John XXIII said of him: "You cannot begin to speak of St. John Mary Vianney without automatically calling to mind the picture of a priest who was outstanding in a unique way in voluntary affliction of his body; his only motives were the love of God and the desire for the salvation of the souls of his neighbors, and this led him to abstain almost completely from food and from sleep, to carry out the harshest kinds of penances, and to deny himself with great strength of soul...[T]his way of life is particularly successful in bringing many men who have been drawn away by the allurement of error and vice back to the path of good living."

During the later part of the nineteenth century, Saint Thérèse of the Child Jesus, another Doctor of the Church, at three years of age was described by her mother: "Even Thérèse is anxious to practice mortification.” And Thérèse later wrote: "My God, I will not be a saint by halves. I am not afraid of suffering for Thee.” The "Little Flower", famous for her "little way" and love of God—fasted and used the 'discipline' vigorously, "scourging herself with all the strength and speed of which she was capable, smiling at the crucifix through the tears which bedewed her eyelashes," according to one of her biographers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_in_Roman_Catholic_teaching

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Mortification

One of the methods which Christian asceticism employs in training the soul to virtuous and holy living. The term originated with St. Paul, who traces an instructive analogy between Christ dying to a mortal and rising to an immortal life, and His followers who renounce their past life of sin and rise through grace to a new life of holiness. "If you live after the flesh", says the apostle, "you shall die, but if through the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live" (Romans 8:13; cf. also Colossians 3:5, and Galatians 5:24). From this original use of the term, we see that mortification, though under one aspect it is a law of death, under another and more fundamental aspect it is a law of life, and does not destroy but elevates nature. What it slays is the disease of the soul, and by slaying this it restores and invigorates the soul's true life.

Of the diseases it sets itself to slay, sin, the one mortal disease of the soul, holds the first place. Sin committed it destroys, by impelling to true penitence and to the use of those means of forgiveness and restoration which our Lord has confided to His Church. Temptations to sin it overcomes by inducing the will to accept hardships, however grace, rather than yield to the temptations. To this extent, mortification is obligatory on all, but those who wish to be more thorough in the service of Christ, carry it further, and strive with its aid to subdue, so far as is possible in this life, that "rebellion" of the flesh against thespirit which is the internal incentive to sin. What is needed to achieve this victory is that the passions and sensual concupiscences, which when freely indulged exercise so pernicious an influence on human conduct, should be trained by judicious repression to subordinate and conform their desires to the rule of reason and in faith, as discerned by the mind. But for this training to be effectual it is not sufficient to restrain these desires of the flesh only when their demands are unlawful. They represent atwist in the nature, and must be treated as one treats a twisted wire when endeavouring to straighten it, namely, by twisting it the opposite way. Thus in the various departments of ascetic observance, earnest Catholics are constantly found denying themselves even in matters which in themselves are confessedly lawful.

Mortification, viewed thus as a means of curing bad habits and implanting good ones, has its recognized place in the methods even of those who are engaged in pursuing purely natural ends. What is peculiar to Christian mortification is, that it relies for the attainment of its spiritual objects, not merely on this natural efficacy of its methods, but still more on the aids of divine grace, for which, by its earnestness in self-discipline and the Christian motive which inspires it, it can plead so powerfully with God. And here, as further contributing to increase it spiritual efficacy, another motive for which it is practiced comes in. It is practiced likewise as an expiation for past sins and shortcomings, for it is the belief of the Catholic Church, that, although only the Atonement of Christ can offer adequate expiation for the sins of men, men ought not to make that an excuse for doing nothing themselves, but should rather take it as an incentive to add their own expiations to the extent of their power, and should regard such personal expiations as very pleasing to God. This explains why many of the mortifications practiced by devout persons are not directly curative of evil propensities, but take the form of painful exercise and privations self-inflicted because they are painful, e.g., fastings, hard beds, abstention from lawful pleasures, etc. Not that these external mortifications are of themselves available, for spiritual writers never tire of insisting that the internal mortification or pride and self-love in their various forms are essential, but that external penances are good only so far as they spring from this internal spirit, and react by promoting it (see ASCETICISM).

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From Pope John XXIII:

Doing penance for one's sins is a first step towards obtaining forgiveness and winning eternal salvation. That is the clear and explicit teaching of Christ, and no one can fail to see how justified and how right the Catholic Church has always been in constantly insisting on this. She is the spokesman for her divine Redeemer. No individual Christian can grow in perfection, nor can Christianity gain in vigor, except it be on the basis of penance...

...29. But the faithful must also be encouraged to do outward acts of penance, both to keep their bodies under the strict control of reason and faith, and to make amends for their own and other people's sins...

...St. Augustine issued the same insistent warning: "It is not enough for a man to change his ways for the better and to give up the practice of evil, unless by painful penance, sorrowing humility, the sacrifice of a contrite heart and the giving of alms he makes amends to God for all that he has done wrong."(29)

30. External penance includes particularly the acceptance from God in a spirit of resignation and trust of all life's sorrows and hardships and of everything that involves inconvenience and annoyance in the conscientious performance of the obligations of our daily life and work and the practice of Christian virtue. Penance of this kind is in fact inescapable. Yet it serves not only to win God's mercy and forgiveness for our sins...

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From the thread I posted an hour or so ago, and that was pulled for being a 'duplicate' within 4 hours:

I have mixed thoughts on mortification, although I find self-flagellation beyond the pale.

Romans 8:13 actually says, “for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live” - which means a born-again Christian allows the Holy Spirit control, for “the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.”

Galatians 5:24 follows: “Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” This doesn’t refer to physical abuse of the human body, but what Paul wrote in the preceding quote.

The scripture says believers WERE crucified with Christ, not that we ARE BEING crucified, or that we should crucify ourselves.

Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Rom 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.

1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. 3For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming. 7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. 8But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. 11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. - Colossians 3

1 posted on Monday, November 23, 2009 11:18:26 AM by Mr Rogers

[americanophile]

This seems to me to be a violation of privacy and trust. It would seem to me that Pope John Paul II, rest his soul, meant these actions for God's eyes and ears alone, not to have eavesdoppers tell tales about it after his passing.

"When thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."Matthew 6:5-6

[vimto]

Whip yourself all you want, it will do you no good.

Christ has paid the penalty for sin - it is finished.

This self flagellation reflects lack of belief and trust in the cross of Christ.

Sad really.

[Kandy]

Francis of Assisi used to throw himself into thorn bushes to abolish temptations of the flesh. The children of Fatima used to practice mortifications. Our Lady told them not to wear the “belts” about the waist while they slept.

And, of course, Theresa of Avila also practiced such mortification. Great saints are great targets for the evil one.

[rjsimmon]

Well said!

[Mr Rogers]

The folk you cite did not act like saints, but like those who sought to do the work of God by their power. Instead of being born again, they sought to birth themselves.

[married21]

Love God, and love my neighbor as myself. That presumes I actually treat myself with love, not torture.

If JPII makes it to sainthood, it will be in spite of self-flagellation, not because of it.

I think, (but can’t remember who, except maybe St. Francis), that there were some saints who did this kind of self-torture for awhile, but gave it up as unnecessary. And I vaguely remember Teresa of Avila going through lots of complicated thinking and austerity and mystical development, and then coming out on the other side with simple joy and faith, singing childrens’ songs instead.

Could these people have simply accepted God’s love and their inherent unworthiness in the first place? Yeah, you’d think so, but they do get credit for getting there eventually. Happy are those who never went near any creepy self-torture, yet have gotten very close to God.

[JPG]

imo, God isn’t impressed with your self-inflicted pain. There are surely more positive ways to use your energy to show your love for God.

[americanophile]

Whip yourself all you want, it will do you no good. Christ has paid the penalty for sin - it is finished. This self flagellation reflects lack of belief and trust in the cross of Christ. Sad really."

I agree with the first half of your statement, I'm not sure I would agree with the latter. It won't do any good, but I don't think it reflects a lack of faith, but a desire to bring oneself closer to God - to share in Christ's suffering...the method is archane, and I think misguided, but I don't think it shows a lack of faith at all. Regrettably, it will no doubt be used by the opponents of the Catholic Church to portray the Pontiff as just another religious fanantic - like the rest of what they regard as hopelessly misguided Christianity.

[buwaya]

They were and are Catholics.

There is no such concept as being “born again” in our religion.

Your religion is substantially different.

[GOP Poet]

God bless Pope John Paul II.

[buwaya]

Its not for the purpose of “impressing” God. One cannot impress God, there is no such concept in the Catholic religion.

Its for the purpose of, variously, suppressing ones urges to sin, to induce humility and suppress pride (which is one reason its popular among the high-ranking), to deal with the psychological torture of guilt, etc.

[Mr Rogers]

“There is no such concept as being “born again” in our religion.”

“3Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”” - John 3

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

[Mr Rogers]

According to Pope John XXIII, “it serves not only to win God’s mercy and forgiveness for our sins...”

So anything else is in addition to winning forgiveness.

[Enosh]

Amen.

[agere_contra]

Thanks for reposting, good to look at this outside of caucus.

Corporal penance has been a completely normal part of the Church's life for millenia.

It's only in our own time that it has become regarded as a sign of mental incapacity: by those unable or unwilling to distinguish it from low-insight activities such as self-mutilation or masochism.

Corporal Penance is not cutting. Corporal Penance is not self-damage, neither is it some masochistic perversion. It is a subset of mortification: a self-willed identification with the pains endured by Christ.

From Colossians 1:24

...and I fulfill in my own flesh what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.

These extraordinary words of St Paul confirm that something IS lacking in the sufferings of Christ. I hazard a guess that it is our engagement with those sufferings: our conformance to them. We are the missing piece of this jigsaw.

It is a good and holy act to bend our minds and our wills to the Passion of Christ. This action usually takes the form of fasting and self-abnegation, which most Catholics are familiar with.

Mortification also includes acts of self-sacrifice which are implicit to marriage vows and the vows of religious.

And Mortification also includes physical mortification or corporal penance: which (it would appear) is a shadow of the Scourging of Christ.

Mortification is required for Christians. We all have to deny ourselves and carry our crosses. But actual Corporal Penance is not a requirement. All we can say is that Corporal Penance has been a hallmark of the lives of many of the Saints - possibly including St Paul. And St John Paul II, if he is canonized.

[vimto]

I want to thank you for your courteous reply.

I think you may be looking at this form a ‘piety’ angle rather than a ‘doctrinal’ one. And in that sense I can see your point, though not entirely agree with it.

I came from a Catholic family and there is much in my upbringing I am thankful for.

When Catholics are persecuted for their faith I thank God for them and I pray for them. So while I take my evangelicalism seriously I have an ambivalence about the catholic church. I love your clear proclamation on such issues as abortion, marriage, homosexuality etc.

This much I will say (though off topic) I have much more respect for most Roman clergy than for the catholic Anglicans. They are subversive and do not accept authority. If they convert in droves expect the Pope to regret it until his dying day. They will troublesome priests, mark my words.

[vimto]

Are you serious!!??

You must be born again to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Oh, I'm not being all divisive and cheap point making - I am alarmed and worried about you. If you are not born again you are not a Christian. Read Jesus’ words in John 3 (I guess you know about that?).

Please, I am not knocking you, I am shocked.
regards

[roamer_1]

I have mixed thoughts on mortification, although I find self-flagellation beyond the pale.

I will stand with you on this point. This sort of action makes me... uncomfortable.

Still, as one who practices and endorses real fasting (no *nothing* till the fast is over), this is not that far away from that concept.

I guess the line is drawn between "denying the body" and self-inflicting pain. That is kind of a fuzzy line though, as fasting (and thirsting) are self-inflicted too.

[buwaya]

I am surprised that you are shocked.

This should be apparent from an initial study of Catholicism.

Biblical interpretation is considerably different on our side, along with much else.