Posted on 11/08/2009 7:04:08 AM PST by Gamecock
Mormon Stumpers
In your discussions with Mormons, they will most often wish to direct the topics presented into those areas where they feel most informed and comfortable. Whether they are the young missionaries at your door or friends or colleagues, they have all been taught several lines of approach and have been drilled in making their points.
We suggest that you take charge of such conversations. Besides acquainting yourself with the basics of Mormon teaching (in addition, of course, to the fundamentals of the Catholic faith), consider presenting the Mormon apologist with a few "stumpers."
"We don’t bash your church, why bash ours?"
Somehow, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have been persuaded by their leaders that they have always been on the receiving end of uncharitable comments and unjust accusations. From the time Joseph Smith began his work in 1820, the Mormon church has gloried in the "fact" that it is a persecuted people. For them, this is a sure sign that it is the Lord’s true church; all opposition comes ultimately from Satan. So, if you do offer a question or a criticism, be prepared for this reaction.
Many Mormons, including their hierarchy, look upon any criticism—regardless of how honest and sincere—as perverseness inspired by the Evil One. But these same individuals ignore their own past (and present) attacks on Christian churches. You might like to point out a few of these to those Mormons who say their church "never attacks other churches."
1. "I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian churches), for they were all wrong…their creeds were an abomination in [God’s] sight; that those professors were all corrupt" (Joseph Smith—History 1:19).
2. "Orthodox Christian views of God are pagan rather than Christian" (Mormon Doctrine of Deity, B. H. Roberts [General Authority], 116).
3. "Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast" (Journal of Discourses, John Taylor [3rd Mormon President], 13:225).
4. "The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon" (Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, Orson Pratt, n. 6, 84).
5. "All the priests who adhere to the sectarian [Christian] religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels" (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith, ed. Vol. 1, n. 4, 60).
6. [Under the heading, "Church of the Devil," Apostle Bruce R. McConkie lists:] "The Roman Catholic Church specifically—singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5)" (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, 129).
7. "Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls (Morm. 8; Moro. 8)" (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, Bruce R. McConkie, 177).
Some contemporary Mormons, embarrassed—at least publicly—by McConkie’s ranting, will respond with, "That’s only his opinion." This is disingenuous at best. Keep in mind that McConkie, who died in 1985, was raised to the level of "apostle" in the Mormon church after he had written all these things. And still today, his Mormon Doctrine is published by a church-owned publishing company and remains one of the church’s bestsellers.
"We have no revelation on abortion"
Didn’t you assume Mormons were pro-life? That’s certainly the image their church attempts to broadcast, and most Mormons, in fact, mistakenly believe their church opposes abortion and regards it as an objective evil. But not so.
Indeed, the Mormon church accepts abortion for a number of reasons. The Church Handbook of Instructions, approved in September, 1998, states that abortion may be performed in the following circumstances: pregnancy resulting from rape or incest; a competent physician says the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy; or a competent physician says that the "fetus" has severe defects that will not allow the "baby" to survive beyond birth. In any case, the persons responsible must first consult with their church leader and receive God’s approval in prayer (156).
This same Handbook, the official policies of the Mormon church to be followed by all local church leaders throughout the world, also claims: "It is a fact that a child has life before birth. However, there is no direct revelation on when the spirit enters the body" (156). Previous teachings by former Mormon prophets referred to the unborn child as "a child," "a baby," a "human being," and decried abortion as "killing," "a grievous sin," "a damnable practice." Spencer W. Kimball, the prophet who died in 1985, taught, "We have repeatedly affirmed the position of the church in unalterably opposing all abortions" (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 189).
It appears that this "unalterable" position, constantly "affirmed," is just another in a series of doctrinal and moral teachings that Mormons have reworded, reworked, rescinded, or reneged—though never officially renounced. Such is the quality of the Mormon belief in "continuing revelation." Don’t expect dogmatic or ethical consistency. Rather, look for expediency and conformity with "the times."
A further statement in the Handbook says: "The church has not favored or opposed legislative proposals or public demonstrations concerning abortion (156)." While the Mormon prophet claims to speak the mind and will of God, he can neither figure out when the unborn child becomes human or if it is God’s desire that we protect the unborn unconditionally.
Your Mormon friend will offer the excuse that his church leaves many decisions to the free agency (free will) of its people, and that abortion is one such concern. You might point out the irony in the fact that the Mormon church has no hesitation or uncertainty in making the following declarations:
1. "The church opposes gambling in any form" (including lotteries). Members are also urged to oppose legislation and government sponsorship of any form of gambling (Handbook, 150).
2. The church also opposes [correctly, of course] pornography in any form (158).
3. Church members are to reject all efforts to legally authorize or support same-sex unions (158).
There is no need for a member to pray for divine guidance or seek church approval for such activities, for there will be no divine or ecclesiastical finessing of morality to permit even an occasional bingo game. A prayerful game of poker, unrepented, will bar the member from the temple and ultimate salvation; a prayerful, by-the-book abortion, unrepented, won’t.
Something’s wrong here
"Only Mormons teach the true nature of God."
Because they believe the Church established by Christ 2,000 years ago fell completely away from his teachings within a century or so of his death, Mormons argue that only a thorough "restoration" (and not a simple "reformation") of the true Church and its holy doctrines would lead man to salvation. Joseph Smith organized this "restored church" in 1830. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints preaches a belief central to most religions: one must know the true nature of God. "It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God" (Teachings of Joseph Smith, 345ff).
No Christian disputes the absolute necessity of knowing the nature of God (to the extent our reason, aided by grace, can apprehend this great mystery). Indeed, the Catholic Church and other Christian denominations have been united in a constant belief in the supreme God as almighty, eternal, and unchanging. Mormons have not been favored by similar clarity from their self-described "prophets" who receive "direct revelation" from the gods.
You may wish to ask your Mormon acquaintance to consider the following authoritative statements by their earlier and present prophets.
1. In an early book of "Scripture" brought forth by Joseph Smith, the creation account consistently refers to the singular when speaking of God and creation: "I, God, caused . . . I, God, created . . . I, God, saw. . . . " The singular is used 50 times in the second and third chapters of the Book of Moses (1831).
2. In another of Smith’s earlier works, the Book of Mormon (1830), there are no references to a plurality of gods. At best, there is a confusion, at times, between the Father and the Son, leading at times to the extreme of modalism (one divine person who reveals himself sometimes as the Father, sometimes as the Son) or the other extreme of "binitarianism," belief in two persons in God. The Book of Mormon also makes a strong point for God’s spiritual and eternal unity (see Alma 11:44 and 22:10-11, which proclaims that God is the "Great Spirit").
3. Another early work of Smith is the Lectures on Faith (1834-35). There is continual evidence that the first Mormon leader taught a form of bitheism: the Father and the Son are separate gods. The Holy Spirit is merely the "mind" of the two.
4. At about the same time, we begin to see a doctrinal shift. Smith had acquired some mummies and Egyptian papyri. He proclaimed the writings to be those of the patriarch, Abraham, in his own hand, and set out to translate the text. His Book of Abraham records in chapters four and five that "the gods called . . . the gods ordered . . . the gods prepared" some 45 times. Smith thus introduces the notion of a plurality of gods.
5. The clearest exposition of this departure from traditional Christian doctrine is seen in Smith’s tale of a "vision" he had as a boy of 14. Both the Father and the Son appeared to him, he wrote; they were two separate "personages." This story of two gods was not authorized and distributed by the church until 1838, after his Book of Abraham had paved the way for polytheism.
6. Readers will notice that the Father is said to have appeared, along with his resurrected Son. In his final doctrinal message, Smith showed how this was possible.
In the King Follett Discourse (a funeral talk he gave in 1844), Joseph Smith left his church with the clearest statement to date on the nature of God:
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens[.] That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man. The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, ‘As the Father hath power to himself, even so hath the Son power’—to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it."
As the Mormon church has taught since that time, God the Father was once a man who was created by his God, was born and lived on another earth, learned and lived the "Mormon gospel," died, and was eventually resurrected and made God over this universe. As such, he retains forever his flesh-and-bones body.
7. Aside from some temporary detours (Orson Pratt said the Holy Ghost was a spiritual fluid that filled the universe; Brigham Young taught that Adam is the god of this world), the Mormon church has constantly taught that God the Father is a perfected man with a physical body and parts. Right-living Mormon men may also progress, as did the Father, and eventually become gods themselves. In fact, fifth president, Lorenzo Snow, summed up the Mormon teaching thus: "As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be." Snow frequently claimed this summary of the Mormon doctrine on God and man was revealed to him by inspiration. (See Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christian?, 60, note 1.)
8. "Thou shalt not have strange gods before me." What is stranger than a God who starts off as a single Spirit, eternal and all-powerful; who then becomes, perhaps, two gods in one, and then three; who never changes, yet was once born a man, lived, sinned, repented, and died; who was made God the Father of this world by his own God; and who will make his own children gods someday of their own worlds?
That all believing Christians are shocked and disturbed by this b.asphemy may—just may—be nudging the Mormon leadership to soften their rhetoric (if not actually change their heresy). A case in point is an interview with current church prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, published in the San Francisco Chronicle on April 13, 1997. When asked: "[D]on’t Mormons believe that God was once a man?" Hinckley demurred. "I wouldn’t say that. There’s a little couplet coined, ‘As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.’ Now, that’s more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about" (3/Z1).
A surprising admission, as Hinckley seems to disparage the constant teaching of all his prophetic predecessors.
Choose, if you like, any one of these three attacks: on Christians; on the sanctity of life; on God. Ask your Mormon listener to explain the contradictions of his church. Don’t be satisfied with a personal, subjective, emotional "testimony." Demand clarification of confused and contradictory teachings.
When they aren’t forthcoming, be prepared to offer the truth.
“And who is always bragging about it?
Again; the MORMONs.”
Well, they helped a lot of people. They will (and are actually prepared to) help everyone on this thread in time of need if it were necessary, including those that disagree with them.
What does your church have to brag about?
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Would you then thereby assume that Jesus failing to give the legalistic Pharisees credit for doing "godly works" -- even though Jesus referenced the Pharisees as children of their father, Satan (see John 8:44 below) -- would also qualify as being "just mean spirited and unChristian"?...so was Christ "unChristian" for uttering the following phrases?
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. (Matthew 23:15)
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (John 8:44)
Wow! [I didn't know church was a pride contest! "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven." (Jesus, Matthew 6:1)]
I’m not defending or bashing anyone’s religion, that is for those more pious than me.
If your Church has good works to mention, just like the Mormons do, now would be a good time to post them on this thread.
It will make this a more positive experience, unless of course, your Church doesn’t have much street cred in the “Good Works” dept.
If all ya got is “we believe in Jesus” then you should take that and supplement it with good ol fashioned mimicry of the Mormon deeds. If all you have is words, that is fine, but how does anyone know if you believe and understand the words in the Bible if you don’t do anything with them?
“I didn’t know church was a pride contest! “
It’s better than a “My religion is better than your religion” contest, isn’t it? It’s a little more positive.
Ya got anything?
Anything?
Are you "insulting" certain posters by calling them "rude...mudslingers"??
I have never seen the level of arguing among religions like I’ve seen on FR...and most is started by the Catholics! It go told a looooong time ago!
“I have never seen the level of arguing among religions like I’ve seen on FR”
How is one to know what the “one true path” is, when there are so many to choose from, and so many people that you’d rather not travel with?
You're operating on some lopsided assumptions. Jesus said, "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 5:20)
This was the best compliment Jesus ever gave the Pharisees! He was saying their outward deeds were as good as you could get; if you couldn't surpass those Pharisaical deeds, he was saying, forget about trying to enter the kingdom of heaven. But what did Jesus say about the internal make-up of the Pharisees? (Did you read Elsie's citation of Matthew 23 in post #88?)
Here's four verses of what Jesus said in Matt. 23 about the great outward-good deed producing Pharisees: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse FIRST that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. (Mt. 23:25-28)
...if you don’t do anything with them [words]?
Assume away. Even if I presented a treasure's trove of church-based good deeds equal to that of what the Pharisees accomplished -- good enough to prompt a great compliment from Jesus to the tune of Matt. 5:20 -- it still wouldn't prove what our church is like on the inside...it'd still be beyond your "good deed measure meter."
So, all you have is words?
You should ease off on the Mormons then, if you can’t mimic their good works it’s not their fault.
John 3:16 is the path, IMO, and arguing religion is ridiculous!
I'm not Catholic...if you were to read consecutive chapters like chpt 17, 18 & 19 in the book of Acts, you'd see the first place the apostle Paul would head upon entering a new community, he'd go to the synagogue ... where he would discuss, debate, argue, refute the Jewish believers there. Then Apollos joined in & did likewise with the Jews. None of these descriptions by Luke in Acts is frowned upon -- as if what Paul or Apollos was doing was negative.
How is one to know what the “one true path” is, when there are so many to choose from, and so many people that you’d rather not travel with? [RFEngineer]
Well...
...#1 ...the thief on the cross to Jesus' side wasn't necessarily who'd ya want as a traveling companion -- if you wanted all your possessions at the end of your destination together.
...#2 ...And Zachaeus the tax collector would be a good modern-day equivalent to a Democratic socialist stealing from you to keep some for himself & give the rest to some "at-large bureaucratic budget pool." We probably wouldn't choose his path, either, if we saw him headin' down a certain pathway.
But that's just it. The cross is for sinners. We're sinners; not lds "gods-in-embryo" (how Lds "prophets" describe Mormons). We're in need of the Great Physician; Jesus said he didn't come to call those who say they have no need of a physician. And if you're a "god-in-embryo" or a future "god," I'd say you're in a different category than either me, the thief on the cross, or Zaccheus the tax collector.
Sorry, I don't cater to braggadocious pride of men who put stock in earning their way to heaven via good works. To feed such an appetite would = me posting thousands pages inventorying thousands of peoples' good works...but for what purpose? To glorify mere men and women -- as if God the Holy Spirit didn't accomplish those things through us?
Your tactic reminds me of the typical pro-abortionists' tactic of old. Some pro-lifer would be talking/discussing/posting something AGAINST abortion. Then some pro-abortionist would enter the discussion & ask a pro-lifer if they've adopted some orphan from Africa -- attempting to paralyze the pro-lifer from saying one single additional word against abortion.
It was like the pro-abort expected the pro-lifer to have a stellar resume' beyond mere words against abortion -- and unless the pro-lifer could produce African (or Asian) adoption records to supposedly "satisfy" the pro-abort challenge, said pro-lifer was just suppose to "shut up."
(Of course, the pro-abort "knew" even if such records were produced...
(a) it wouldn't change the pro-abort's mind about pro-life issues;
and (b) producing such records wouldn't satisfy them, anyway, because it wasn't the intent of the challenge to begin with...so congrats, RF, you've managed to mimick pro-abort tactics!)
Whenever the apostle Paul would enter a community, he'd head for the Jewish synagogue...he'd discuss, preach, argue, debate, refute, etc. If you'd been there, you'd probably have accused him of having an "anti-Jew obsession" -- even though Paul was Jewish. Then you'd thrown the "there's nothing Christian" at Paul about what he was doing.
I challenge you to read Acts 17. Acts 18. Acts 19. See if you'd conclude, then, the same thing about the apostle Paul.
I don’t think Mormonism is a Christian denomination so much as ‘Christian-ish.’ To be a Christian, as Christianity has been understood for thousands of years, you must believe in the Triune God for starters.
A very good question. (I'm glad you asked it). Ask Szonian. Here's somebody within the Mormon community. He started reading FR posts on Mormonism. And then he came to some different conclusions. (I won't pretend to tell his testimony...he could relay it himself).
Wouldn't you rather just do the best with your religion that you can and leave others to worship in the way they choose?
You know, I'd consider this a very fair question -- so long as you were asking Lds the exact same question.
On the one hand...
...here are a handful of FR folks who have several posts a week...
...On the Mormon side, they send out 60,000 Missionaries around the world who work 70 hrs a week for two years. (They've sent out over a million missionaries).
...And in MANY communities, 75% of more of those they visit are either Christians or have a Christian background. (And 86-95% of them, depending upon the community, usually already have another religion other than Mormonism)
Have you asked them, "Wouldn't you rather just do the best with your religion that you can and leave others to worship in the way they choose?
Now what's one of the main messages of Mormon missionaries? Well, Marion G. Romney used to be in charge of Mormon missionaries (in the 60s). Marion G. was Mitt Romney's dad's cousin. Marion would tell Lds missionaries that the apostasy & restoration was one of the top four things that they needed to share with folks they visited.
Do you know what Lds mean when they talk about "THE" apostasy? They say EVERY...
...Christian church,
...every Catholic church,
...every Protestant church,
...every Orthodox church,
...and every believer in those churches were apostates of the faith going back 1600-1800 years.
Beyond that, Lds tithe to translate one of their "scriptures" into over 100 languages -- verses which directly accuse Christian sects of having 100% of creeds which are supposedly an "abomination" (putrid) to their god. Likewise, it accuses Christian professing believers of being "ALL...corrupt."
Now, Mysterio. Tell us.
When's the last time you've asked a Mormon why he tithes to translate these slanderous accusations & publish them around the world?
When's the last time you've asked a Mormon missionary why he accuses all Christians & their churches of being an "apostate?"
And how is Mormons calling Christians "apostates" ANY different than Muslims accusing Christians of being "infidels?"
And note, mind you, these aren't just mere "opinions" of their leaders through the years. Mormons have ensured that these specific words about Christian sects were inserted into the Mormon god's mouth & canonized as Mormon "scripture."
Wouldn't Mormon "scriptures" and those who spread them rather just do the best with their religion that they can -- and leave others to worship in the way they choose?
I suspect somehow you've failed to ask that Q of 60,000 Lds missionaries "employed" 70 hrs a week for 2 years doin' the above; but you somehow look askance at just a few FReepers makin' some posts. (At least we don't ring a doorbell that people feel obliged that they HAVE to respond to).
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