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Riding high in the saddle
Triablogue ^ | H

Posted on 10/28/2009 4:18:54 PM PDT by the_conscience

Riding high in the saddle

Francis Beckwith is in a tizzy. Sometimes you have to wonder when the poor guy isn’t in a tizzy. Apparently, “coming home” hasn’t brought him the peace of mind he was seeking.

One of my pet peeves is the intentional overuse of "Rome," "Roman," "Romanist," etc. by Protestant critics of Catholic theology. Here's why: the Catholic Church is a collection of many churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome. It's catechism--The Catechism of the Catholic Church--is that of all these churches that are in communion with one another and with the Supreme Pontiff, Pope Benedict XVI. The theology found in that text, therefore, is not Roman Catholic theology. It is Catholic theology. That's the way the Church understands itself. Common courtesy suggests that those who are critical of that theology summon the respect to refer to it as such.

I am a member of a parish that is in the Latin Rite, and thus, I am, in that sense, "Roman" Catholic. But if, let's say, my wife and I moved to Austin and we became members of Our Lady's Maronite Church, we would still be Catholic, in communion with the Bishop of Rome, but not technically "Roman" Catholic. We would be Maronite Catholic.

I, of course, do not believe that people who use the phrase "Roman Catholic" without knowing its pedigree are intending anything more than to label. Others, however, are less noble in their purposes.

Consequently, anyone with any grasp of the issues knows full well that the Catholic Church is no more the Roman Catholic Church than is the United States of America the District of Columbia of America.

Just as it is not wise or polite to insist on calling a man "black" who asks you to call him an "African American," one should call Catholicism by the name it calls itself rather the label its ignorant or bigoted critics insist on calling it.

If an individual Catholic wants to be called a "Roman Catholic," that's his business, and I will respect him by calling him nothing but that. On the other hand, if the Church with which he is in communion insists on calling itself "Catholic," he and the Protestant should comply, if for no other reason than that it is charitable to do so and charity is a virtue.

I guess it should not surprise me that a Protestant would not only protest against the Catholic Church but also the Catholic Church's use of the word Catholic. He's not pleased with just leaving our church and having his own church; he wants to take our name and give us a new one. So much for the "priesthood of all believers." :-)


You wouldn’t expect a philosophy prof. to exhibit quite so much philosophical naiveté.

i) For starters, when speakers (or writers) use a designation, it’s not necessarily to make a point about the referent. Oftentimes, it’s just a common way of referring to something. A conventional, recognizable designation.

In that context, such usage carries no special significance one way or the other. There’s no subtext.

ii) At other times, the speaker will, indeed, use a designation to make a point. But one of the odd things about Beckwith’s outrage is that “Roman Catholic” or “Roman Catholicism” comports perfectly well with the self-understanding of his denomination. According to the official legend that underwrites his denomination, Peter, as vicar of Christ, was the first bishop of Rome, and he ordained a line of successors. That’s why Catholic apologists and theologians stress “Roman primacy.”

Why Beckwith imagines this usage to be ignorant, or bigoted is puzzling.

iii) It’s even more puzzling when you consider the fact that he himself entitled his book “Return to Rome.” And that’s also the name of his blog.

The fact that he’s so hypersensitive about this innocuous designation on the lips of Protestants must betray some insecurity on his part.

iv) Conversely, and ironically, the reason he gives for why a Protestant speaker should defer to “Catholic” usage is the very reason a Protestant might balk. To the extent that this designation is taken to reflect the self-understanding of his denomination, that’s an excellent reason to avoid it.

A self-designation can be a propaganda device: “One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter…”

In cases where a self-designation is propagandistic, a speaker has every right to resist that terminology.

Mainland Chinese party officials might well regard it as more charitable and polite to designate their totalitarian regime the “People’s Republic of China,” but I’ll stick with “Red China.”

Mormons might find it more charitable and polite if we called them “Christians” rather than “Mormons.” After all, the self-designation of their cult is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.” That reflects their self-understanding.

Since, however, that self-designation is a propaganda tool, I’ll stick with “Mormon.”

Likewise, the abortion lobby prefers to peddle euphemisms like “woman’s choice” or “medical procedure.” Does charity or courtesy oblige me to be a party of their agenda?

To take his own example, when race-baiters like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson insist on “African-American” to denote and promote their brand of identity-politics, I reserve the right to opt out of that linguistic extortion.

v) I can’t help noticing that the church of Rome only discovered the virtues of courtesy and charity rather late in the day. If, for example, you read the text of Exsurge Domine (available online), the language and countermeasures proposed by Pope Leo X to describe and suppress the nascent Protestant movement doesn’t strike me as overly charitable or courteous.

I also can’t help but notice that this discovery seems to time with the church of Rome’s loss of temporal power. And therein lies a moral: the true test of charity is not to be charitable when you have to be, but to be charitable when you don’t have to be.

Once his denomination no longer had state sponsorship to back its brass knuckle policies, then it suddenly discovered the virtues of tolerance. Funny how those in power are quick to advocate tolerance the moment they fall from power. But I’m sure that’s purely coincidental.

vi) For Beckwith to image that Protestants are “taking our name,” as if the church of Rome held the copyright to “Catholic,” is symptomatic of his insular self-absorption.

This sort of opining about someone’s inner life and thought processes from an online interview is unseemly. The meanness was palpable.

I have no idea how people like Mr. Turk can so causally and without regard for others claim to know every jot and tittle of what lurks in a person’s spiritual journey. It made me ill when I read it two years ago, and it makes me ill to read again now.

To take something so personal, profound, and moving and turn into a condescending blog entry in order to get a rise out of your fundamentalist Amen corner is beyond the pale.

But what just sticks in my craw is the arrogant flippancy of people like Turk who think they can move from a brief interview to pronounce on the seriousness of a person’s spiritual journey.


Of course, that complaint is wholly duplicitous. Like so many converts and reverts, Beckwith is using his life story to justify his change of religious alliance. An exercise in autobiographical apologetics. Since he himself has made that large part of the argument, then his personal narrative is fair game.

In fact, virtually every Christological heresy in the history of the church is the consequence of someone trying to split the difference.

That’s often the case. And it’s highly ironic that Beckwith would bring this up since church of Rome has always tried to split the difference between sola gratia, on the one hand, and human freedom or merit, on the other. So, by his own yardstick, “Catholic” soteriology is analogous to Christological heresies.

It seems to me that the issue on which the Reformation ultimately turns is the nature of grace. Once I could not in good conscience hold to forensic justification and imputed righteousness, I had no choice but to return to the Church of my baptism.

i) That’s quite illogical. Even if you reject forensic justification and imputed righteousness, it’s not as though the church of Rome is the only alternative. Why not become an Anabaptist or Eastern Orthodox, or any number of other options?

ii) Does Catholic theology reject imputed righteousness? Sure, there’s more to Catholic theology than imputed righteousness–like congruent merit and infused grace. But doesn’t Catholicism also subscribe to the vicarious atonement of Christ? Likewise, isn’t the treasury of merit vicarious merit?

All I am suggesting is that Evangelicals like Turk learn how to read others with an eye toward learning rather than “gotcha.” If he had not read the interview locked and loaded, and if he had taken the time to understand Trent as Trent understood itself rather than how philosophically untutored low-church fundamentalist American Christians read it...

i) I’m struck by how often Catholic converts and reverts exhibit this overweening pride. Why do so many of them act like self-important prigs? I always have to ask myself, are they so proud of themselves because they're Catholic, or are they Catholic because they're so proud of themselves?

I’d just note in passing that if a man is that full of himself, then there’s not much room left over for Jesus.

ii) Moreover, Beckwith is not a church historian or licensed Catholic theologian. He’s not some great authority on Tridentine theology. He’s just a layman–like you and me.

A word of advice to Beckwith: Don’t get on your high horse when you ride a Shetland pony.

iii) To further an ecumenical agenda, there’s a lot of historical revisionism afoot regarding the original intent of the Tridentine Fathers. And it isn’t just beetle-browed fundies who see it that way. To take a few examples from different sides of the debate:

Robert D. Preus, Justification and Rome (Concordia 1997)

http://wordalone.com/docs/wa-german-professors.shtml

http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9912/articles/dulles.html


TOPICS: Humor
KEYWORDS: anticatholic; antichristian
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1 posted on 10/28/2009 4:18:54 PM PDT by the_conscience
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

This is funny. Beckwith get his skull cap handed to him.


2 posted on 10/28/2009 4:20:19 PM PDT by the_conscience
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To: the_conscience
One of my pet peeves is the intentional overuse of "Rome," "Roman," "Romanist," etc. by Protestant critics of Catholic theology.

The use of "Romanist" is a dead giveaway of anti-Catholic bias. Putting lipstick on it doesn't help. It's still ugly.

3 posted on 10/28/2009 6:26:14 PM PDT by Lorica
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To: the_conscience

Er, “Roman Catholic” is a word of English Protestant origin. We have just sort of accepted it as Latter Day Saints have accepted take name “mormon.” Bottom line: It is not official.


4 posted on 10/28/2009 8:59:27 PM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE HOMO!)
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To: the_conscience

Actually Beckwith is much better reasoned in his thinking then the moron who responded to his statement.

The simple fact is that I am not Roman. I am Catholic, however. When someone insists on calling me a “Roman Catholic” after I inform him that that is a Protestant term and is not appropriate or accurate, I know the Protestant is clearly a bigot. That assessment has always been borne out by later information too.

What Beckwith is discovering, if he didn’t know it already, is that many Protestant opponants of the Catholic faith are bigots. I did get a few bigots to stop doing this by INSISTING that they call me the “N-word” as well. They were usually dumbstruck when I first insisted on it, but got the point that one bigotry was as bad as another.


5 posted on 10/28/2009 9:12:36 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998

“The simple fact is that I am not Roman. I am Catholic, however.”

When I was an Episcopalian, I was Catholic also. We did refer to ourselves as Anglo-Catholics to distinguish ourselves from Roman Catholics. Are you Episcopalian?


6 posted on 10/29/2009 7:46:03 AM PDT by superdad
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To: the_conscience
"Romanist" is a derogatory term. Most dictionaries identify it as such.

"Roman Catholic" is a term invented originally by Anglicans who were claiming that one could be Catholic without allegiance to the Pope.

The terms "Church of Rome" or "Roman Church" are somewhat suspicious as well. We don't call Southern Baptists "adherents of the Church of Nashville," nor do we call members of the PCA "adherents of the Church of Lawrenceville, Georgia," nor do we call Anglicans "adherents of the Cantabridgian Church". But I have been called "an adherent of the Church of Rome" more than once by Anglicans.

7 posted on 10/29/2009 7:56:34 AM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: superdad

You wrote:

“When I was an Episcopalian, I was Catholic also.”

I’m not trying to offend you, but I don’t see how that is possible. Episcopalianism is not Catholic or catholic.

“We did refer to ourselves as Anglo-Catholics to distinguish ourselves from Roman Catholics. Are you Episcopalian?”

No, just Catholic.


8 posted on 10/29/2009 8:07:00 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: the_conscience; HarleyD; wmfights; Forest Keeper; Mr Rogers; 1000 silverlings; Augustinian monk; ...
This is funny. Beckwith get his skull cap handed to him.

Thanks for the ping. Great article. And VERY appropriate to our discussions.

Why Beckwith imagines this usage to be ignorant, or bigoted is puzzling. It’s even more puzzling when you consider the fact that he himself entitled his book “Return to Rome.”

lol. Rome double-speak.

"A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways." -- James 1:8

9 posted on 10/29/2009 1:03:14 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: the_conscience
I always have to ask myself, are they so proud of themselves because they're Catholic, or are they Catholic because they're so proud of themselves?

I think it's primarily the latter.

10 posted on 10/29/2009 1:06:52 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: the_conscience
I’m struck by how often Catholic converts and reverts exhibit this overweening pride. Why do so many of them act like self-important prigs? I always have to ask myself, are they so proud of themselves because they're Catholic, or are they Catholic because they're so proud of themselves?

....Beckwith is not a church historian or licensed Catholic theologian. He’s not some great authority on Tridentine theology. He’s just a layman–like you and me. A word of advice to Beckwith: Don’t get on your high horse when you ride a Shetland pony.

Ping for later

11 posted on 10/29/2009 1:25:32 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him" - Job 13:15)
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To: Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg; Campion; vladimir998; Lorica
v) I can’t help noticing that the church of Rome only discovered the virtues of courtesy and charity rather late in the day. If, for example, you read the text of Exsurge Domine (available online), the language and countermeasures proposed by Pope Leo X to describe and suppress the nascent Protestant movement doesn’t strike me as overly charitable or courteous.

I also can’t help but notice that this discovery seems to time with the church of Rome’s loss of temporal power. And therein lies a moral: the true test of charity is not to be charitable when you have to be, but to be charitable when you don’t have to be.

Once his denomination no longer had state sponsorship to back its brass knuckle policies, then it suddenly discovered the virtues of tolerance. Funny how those in power are quick to advocate tolerance the moment they fall from power. But I’m sure that’s purely coincidental.

Rome at her heights ruled with a Rahm Immanuel style of means justifying ends but once the West broke free of her grip Rome had no real power and eventually turned to existentialism which was manifested in Vatican II. Now she and her congregants display an Ophrahesque internalism seemingly always a victim with their self-esteem in need of repair.

12 posted on 10/29/2009 2:36:31 PM PDT by the_conscience
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To: the_conscience; Alex Murphy
Yes, they've turned from the "existentialism of Vatican II" with a fury and now find themselves moving swiftly towards the fascism that is inherent within its top-down ranks as it follows a "you-know-what" pope who tells us we all must submit to a "global authority" on earth who will manage our lives, our faith, our families, our finances, our defense and our conscience.

lol. No thanks.

13 posted on 10/29/2009 2:42:37 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy

I’m sure Rome would love to return to her role of informing Kings and Tyrants and why she is promoting one world government.


14 posted on 10/29/2009 3:22:13 PM PDT by the_conscience
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To: the_conscience

You wrote:

“Rome at her heights...”

When exactly? Give me a century at least.

“...ruled with a Rahm Immanuel style of means justifying ends...”

Define “ruled”.

“...but once the West broke free of her grip Rome had no real power and eventually turned to existentialism which was manifested in Vatican II.”

What you just said makes absolutely no sense.

“Now she and her congregants display an Ophrahesque internalism seemingly always a victim with their self-esteem in need of repair.”

I have no idea of what you’re babbling about. Have you read any of the encyclicals of either of the last two popes?


15 posted on 10/29/2009 3:27:36 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

So you and the_conscience disagree. Interesting.


16 posted on 10/29/2009 3:28:53 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998; the_conscience
So you and the_conscience disagree. Interesting.

I don't see where we disagree.

17 posted on 10/29/2009 3:30:26 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

the_conscience, although he used the word “Now” in the subsequent sentence wrote this:

“...eventually turned to existentialism which was manifested in Vatican II.”

You, however, wrote:

“Yes, they’ve turned from the “existentialism of Vatican II” with a fury and now find themselves moving swiftly towards the fascism...”

So, you believe the Church is headed toward facism and away from the_conscience’s idea of “existentialism of Vatican II”.

Although the_conscience used the word “Now” which might hint at a change, he gave no attestation of it. Thus, you believe one thing and he believes another - if your words can be relied on for meaning.


18 posted on 10/29/2009 3:36:07 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; vladimir998

Nope, no disagreement. We both see how Ratzy is trying to set up for a one world government.


19 posted on 10/29/2009 3:36:34 PM PDT by the_conscience
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To: the_conscience
I am a member of a parish that is in the Latin Rite, and thus, I am, in that sense, "Roman" Catholic. But if, let's say, my wife and I moved to Austin and we became members of Our Lady's Maronite Church, we would still be Catholic, in communion with the Bishop of Rome, but not technically "Roman" Catholic. We would be Maronite Catholic.

Sounds like they're a Catholic denomination. ;O)

20 posted on 10/29/2009 3:59:01 PM PDT by HarleyD
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