Posted on 10/06/2009 7:15:27 PM PDT by Colofornian
From the article: Ricks does not consider his group "anti-Mormon," he said, though that's often the first thing church members label it. Ricks calls it an uninformed, knee-jerk reaction.
Even Jesus was AGAINST error and yet died FOR sinners; He told the Saducees: Jesus replied, "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?" (Mark 12:24)
So, just because Jesus spoke up vs. Saducees Scriptural error/power of God error didn't make Him an "anti-Saducee."
It doesn't sound like Ricks moved over into the Christian arena postMormon.
Heart of the Matter...
A weekly call in TV show..
Shawn McCraney is a “Born-Again Mormon”
The last few weeks Shawn has been talking about D&C 132 !!!
The “Introduction” at that site is heartfelt and well written. Commendable I’d say.
On Part Two, before he dived into discussing D&C 132, he said:
Well, last week, I prefaced my monologue by saying that one of the favorite activities of many LDS, aside from praising Man, was cherry-picking scriptures – you know, pulling them out of context and wrongly applying them in order to support their pet LDS perspective.
When we started taking calls one Joe from Clinton, Utah, an LDS man, must not have heard my comments on the subject and, well, started in doing the “cherry-pickers waltz.”
I danced with him for awhile, which is truly against my better judgment. Then just when he had danced himself into a scriptural corner using passages from the Bible, the program ran out of time.
We were talking about being saved, and in an effort to bolster his argument that we must work to receive salvation, he cherry-picked a favorite LDS verse from Matthew chapter seven, which says:
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” By the tone of his voice, you would have thought he was read something that said:
“Verily, verily, believing in Jesus and confessingeth Him is insufficient, for you have to worketh your braineths out -eth . . . Shawneth.”:
Joe didn’t even see that that he became an actual living example of Latter-day Saint cherry-picking scripture.
How?
In a couple of very profound ways.
First, if he had only continued to read!
What does Jesus say in the next verse? He clarifies the context of why people are saying, “Lord, Lord!”
Listen! He says:
“Many will say to me in that day,
“Lord, Lord,” have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The context of these passages are that people will come and say to Jesus, Lord, Lord, look at our good Works! Our many wonderful works.
The LDS interpret this passage to be saying “Not everyone who confesses Jesus name – Lord, Lord – will be saved, but Jesus clarifies why they are even saying, Lord, Lord – they are saying that in His name they have done many good works.
His reply is, you can do what you want in my name, but if it is not from doing the will of my Father, you’re outta here.
Source: http://www.alatheamedia.com/media/transcripts/20090915.pdf
Indeed, however there is the sadness there that results from the mormon slash and burn policy - too much there representing a degree of agnosticism. This is not uncommon in many exmormon sites. They have had mormon concept of religion being true and all others false so burned into their psyche that when they have their eyes open to the falsehood of mormonism, they don’t look to the Real Jesus, as they consider Christianity to be as false as mormonism.
I enjoy listening to Shawn. Some have issues with him for not being hard enough, but I think that is a degree of ignorance on their part. He is proceeding from a knowledge of what opened his eyes to Christ. I down load his audio podcasts for listening too.
It is overcomeable though isn't it! :) Thank God.
Oops, I think I got my too-to in a twist. :p
Here's some of what McCraney said on Part II of his D&C 132 show...note especially the bold-faced below:
Here McCraney is reading and interpreting D&C 132:17 and following:
“For these angels did NOT abide my law (this is talking about everyone who is LDS that has not been married to their spouse in the LDS temple); therefore, they cannot be enlarged (that means have babies forever and govern worlds of their own), but remain separately and singly (that means unmarried)ation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.”
This is saying SO much, my friends.
Listen.
First it is saying that there is a huge difference in LDS doctrine between being saved and exaltation (which is becoming a god).
Next, it tells us what is required to become a god: Being married or sealed to a spouse in an LDS temple. If a Latter-day Saint IS NOT married in an LDS temple, they will die without a spouse, and will become servant angels for eternity because they failed where others succeeded, and gained a “weightier glory.”
Sound Christian? They say they are Christian!
Does this sound Christian to you?
And what is required to enter their temple in order to receive these marital ordinances so as to become an enlarged God?
Obedience to an assortment of qualifyiers including confessing allegiance only to Mormonism, Joseph Smith, modern prophets, paying 10% of your income to the church, abstaining from coffee, tea, tobacco and alcohol, having no more than one piercing in your ears, and a host of other external submissions.
Did Jesus say ANYTHING like this was required for people to become GODS?
What does the Bible say is required to receive eternal life?
Believe that Jesus is God and you will be saved.
The “revelation” goes on to list all the glories that await people who are married in an LDS temple, and then states in verse 20 and 21, that after all these glories have been bestowed upon the faithful LDS:
“Then shall they be gods, because they have no end, therefore they shall be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things shall be subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law, ye cannot attain to this glory.”
Where God says through Isaiah:
(Isa 43:10) Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Joseph says:
“You shall be gods. And you will get there ONLY through marriage in an LDS temple.”
A-MAZING!
Amazing that in the august presence of God’s Holy Word and Jesus’ ultimate and final offering, and God’s superlative descriptions of Himself, that there are people on their earth who actually believe they can become gods – through their own efforts.
Father, open their eyes.
The revelation continues...
[McCraney reads & comments on vv. 27-31]...and then adds:
Then he drops the bomb – on Emma, and on the LDS world forever.
Still speaking of Joseph Smith and his relation to Abraham, [the Mormon] God says in verse 32:
“Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and you shall be saved!”
This is gigantic bombshell, my friends, because what Joseph is having God say to him is: “Go take on more wives and you will be saved because you are being obedient to this eternal law being revealed here.”
How can I say this?
Keep reading verses 33-39 ...
What Joseph is doing is he is building a case for his justification for having more than one wife...
I’ve listened to his audio on these a couple of weeks ago. Reading it does it no justice - ya gotta listen to him say it!
Do we need to start calling you squeeky?
According to partial transcripts of Part 3 of D&C 132 -- http://www.alatheamedia.com/media/transcripts/20090922.pdf:
(Here is McCraney picking up @ Lds Doctrine & Covenants 132:46 -- exposing what Joseph Smith was trying to accomplish by writing it...when you contemplate the parts below that are bold-faced AND underlined -- what Smith did not only for himself but set in motion for others is outright sickening!):
Listen to verse 46:
“And verily, verily, I say unto you, that whatsoever you seal on earth, and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name and my word, saith the Lord, it shall be ETERNALLY bound in the heavens; and whatsoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whatsoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven.”
This statement, which Joseph took from Jesus when he spoke to his disciples on how to manage the early church, Joseph now applied to his God given power and ability to seal anything on earth eternally.
He’s inching slowly toward revealing polygamy to Emma here.
He is building a masterful, but convoluted and twisted case.
Just listen to verse 48 as he slips in a key phrase to this whole “revelation” and his power and ability to seal matters on earth.
Ready?
“And again,” he has the Lord say, “verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth (LISTEN) and to whomsoever you give any one on earth . . .” In this line, Joseph has God say that he has the ability to take and give human beings to people and have them bound eternally in heaven.
You may think this is just a guy talking or you may believe this is God talking, but let me tell you how this phrase played out:
It played out where the early church leaders would literally “take” people, women, primarily, and have them sealed to themselves.
Women who were in their teens.
Orphans.
Women who were happily married to other men.
Women who were sisters.
Women who were mothers and daughters.
This revelation opened the door for Joseph and Brigham and others to take and exchange people as if they were baseball cards.
All in God’s name!
Now let me explain something here.
I understand adultery. I understand lust and messing up. I am not condemning anyone for failures in their flesh nor am I holding Joseph up to moral scrutiny. He has, as a man, to answer to His God.
BUT the problem, the heresy, the abomination, was Joseph used God’s name to justify all of this.
This is what we are pointing out to people – that they are embracing a man who did not hesitate to use God’s name to justify ANYTHING.
In order to really put an exclamation point on this whole revelation so far, and to remind Emma of exactly who he was, Joseph then has audacity to have God say in the next verse, verse 49: (Listen to this)
“For I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee (Joseph) even unto the end of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I seal upon you your exaltation and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my father, with Abraham your father.”
And in the next verse he has God forgive him for all of his sins.
So the stage is set.
He has talked about eternal laws and made it clear that whoever reads this revelation must live it.
Then he lays out a case for marriage being either of their earth or eternal, and if eternal, the gateway to becoming a GOD.
Then he presents Abraham and others as participants in polygamy.
Then he states that he has the power to seal and bind people – and to give them to whomever he would.
And finally, before he gets into polygamy, he reminds everyone, but especially Emma, that he is promised by God to be exalted and that all his sins are forgiven.
This takes us to verse 52, where Joseph has God speak to Emma.
“And let my handmaiden, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, AND who are virtuous and pure before me, (meaning, more wives) (then God says something really weird here, He says) “and those (women who Joseph seeks to have as extra wives) who are not pure, and have said they are pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord.”
What the? I mean, are there any lengths this guys wouldn’t go to fulfill his fantasies?
Joseph goes on to have God speak to Emma about supporting him, and then in verse 54 he has God threaten his wife, saying:
“But if she will not obey this commandment she shall be destroyed.”
Throughout much of his life, Joseph promounces a lot of these warnings – telling people that if they didn’t do this or didn’t do that God would destroy them.
In verse 56, “God reminds Emma again that she is to forgive Joseph his trespasses” (probably referring to hiding secret wives from her knowledge) and in verse 57 he has God tell her that “he is with Joseph just as he was with Abraham.”
In verse 59, Joseph has God return to the topic of men doing things in His name and by His power, and that if a person does something “according to these laws, he will not be committing sin and God will justify him.” It is interesting that Joseph has God here sort of justifying some acts of men, saying they are not committing sin if they do these actions according to his laws.
What actions is God talking about that might appear to be sin but are not?
Verse 61-62 tells us as Joseph has God say:
“If any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouses the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then he is justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given him, for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else. And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and are given unto him, therefore he is justified.”
This doctrine is still part of LDS scripture. It is believed, it is practiced spiritually in the church today, and LDS men wait for it to be reintroduced for practice – if not here, then certainly in heaven – for it is an eternal law which, according to Mormon doctrines, can NEVER be done away with.
...
Section 132 ends with Joseph warning all women whose husbands have read and received this revelation that if they reject it, they will be destroyed, becoming a transgressor.
I would suggest just the opposite.
At one time there were youtube sessions from McCraney’s program. I wonder if this rendering of D&C 132 is on Youtube? I would kind of like to hear it as well as read it.
Thanks, I’ll have to check that out!
Squeeky no, Squiggy maybe. ;)
In particular, The Lamanite Issue is Not So Much a Matter of Doctrine as it is a Matter of Credibility is quite good. It looks like it would make a great thread on its own.
Prosperity Gospel - Mormon style
Believe that Jesus is God and you will be saved.
John 6
28. Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29. Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
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