Posted on 10/01/2009 9:30:54 PM PDT by Tai_Chung
MIAMI – Hundreds of congregants have left a pioneering megachurch in Florida to form their own congregation because they were unhappy with leadership at the church that's seen as a bedrock of the religious right. The action by the unhappy members at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church was the culmination of a feud between loyalists to an evangelical luminary, the Rev. D. James Kennedy, and his replacement as pastor, the Rev. Tullian Tchividjian, a grandson of the Rev. Billy Graham.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
You wrote:
“I understand that that is your perspective, and I mean no insult. However, be aware that protestants believe that, to one degree or another, the RC church abandoned biblical teachings and so the Protestants are the one continuous church, the remnant, if you will.”
This is not a matter of perspective but of logic and common sense. Where were the Protestants in the 12th century? The 9th? The 14th? The 3rd? They never existed until 1517. Period. Even most Protestants who know anything about history are willing to admit that. That means - logically - that Protestants are not a continuous church, but a novel sect. They can not be a remnant.
Coral Ridge is a member of the Presbyterian Church in America [PCA, not PCUSA]. They are not non-denominational.
...Dr. Kennedy's position was that it was not his place to choose his successor. His position was consistent with Presbyterianism, which sets forth the pastoral succession process in a denominational document called the Book of Church Order. In brief, the congregation elects a "pulpit committee," which then conducts a search for a candidate, then nominates that person to the congregation. Accordingly, Kennedy "did not 'train up' anyone," Siegenthaler said. "He did not anoint anyone. He did not even point out someone he thought would be suitable"....Related threads:....No such battle occurred at Coral Ridge Presbyterian. When the church clerk emerged to report the congregation's March 15 vote on pastoral candidate Tullian Tchividjian, a whopping 91 percent had voted yes.
I think the 1st has a 3rd, more basic component to it.
When a pastor has been at a church a long time, the people left in the church are those who like him, and those who have been drawn to the church who like him. Over time, those who belonged to the church because of the church, rather than the pastor, die of old age or move away.
Anyway, a new pastor comes in, and immediately some of people won’t like him. And those who join churches because of the pastor, and don’t like the new pastor, will obviously leave the church, to find another church with a pastor they like.
Over time, the new pastor, if he is called by God, will draw in new members who like HIM, some of whom may not have joined the church before because they didn’t like the previous pastor.
Churches that change pastors on a regular basis suffer a lot less from this, first because the people who belong to such churches tend to be those who are drawn by church doctrine or congregational relationships more than the teaching/preaching style, and second because no pastor is there long enough to draw a lot of people into the church simply because they like the pastor.
The situation is worse with megachurches, simply because oftentimes the EXISTANCE of a magachurch is due to the pastor, it’s why they grew so large.
I say that because, in the absense of people who just want to be with THAT PASTOR, churches are much more inviting, and do a much better job serving God and Man, if they split and plant when they get to the 500-1000 member range (some say much smaller than that is even better).
By “church planting” using offshoots, God’s work can more readily spread through a community. CHurches spring up locally all around, and each one can offer slightly different emphasis, giving more of the faithful choices that interest them for service.
The most common reason for a church to STOP spawning off sister churches is when you get a pastor that is the focus of the church, so that nobody WANTS to leave to form the sister church.
Coral Ridge said it's not worried about maintaining its membership after the departures. About 200 people enrolled in a class for new members after Tchividjian took over in March.
Still, the move is a dramatic split. Kennedy's daughter, Jennifer Kennedy Cassidy, joined many longtime Coral Ridge members, including church elders, the organist, choir director and hundreds of choir members, in deserting the congregation they helped build.
Former Coral Ridge elder Jim Filosa joined the new church. He and his wife were disciplined by Coral Ridge for taking part in a campaign to remove Tchividjian....
....The feud at Coral Ridge appears mostly to be a matter of style, not substance.
Under the leadership of Kennedy, who died in 2007, the church was a forerunner to modern evangelical megachurches, a fiercely conservative voice on social issues including homosexuality and abortion, and a powerful political voice.
Tchividjian, 37, took over earlier this year. While he has shown no sign of theological differences with Kennedy, he has rejected politics as the most important force for change, and his sermons have not focused on divisive issues.
....No such battle occurred at Coral Ridge Presbyterian. When the church clerk emerged to report the congregation's March 15 vote on pastoral candidate Tullian Tchividjian, a whopping 91 percent had voted yes.
Most pastoral call votes I've witnessed (both in P & R circles and "mutt evangelicalism") have been unanimous, or very close to it. There was also the issue of merging with Rev. Tchividjian's church, which is unusual. I note that the vote to retain came in at a lesser percentage.
Sounds like a mess.
Thanks for clarifying. Kennedy seemed like straight shooter the last time I saw him on TV, almost 20 years ago.
While it may not (or may) apply in this case, one can easily remove the wordplay and arrive at, essentially, the very same result: another day, another protestant [non-]denomination.
Excellent additions to my observations. Thanks for taking the time to put them into writing.
Quite a slam at old Billy Graham!
Tullian Tchividjian wrote an op-ed for the local paper about the mess here, and the Christian Post has a news story pre-vote here. The Post's coverage says this about the reasons for the vote:
So far, those opposed to Tchividjian’s leadership have listed a number of reasons for the removal of their new senior pastor, including his alleged failure to present the Gospel clearly, his failure to raise awareness on current issues, and the replacement of CRPC staff with “less qualified staff members who are, however, ‘loyal’ to the new administration.”And Tchividjian's op-ed offered this elaboration:
You may have read, in this paper or elsewhere, six members of our church recently circulated unsolicited letters and a petition voicing their opposition to my leadership and requesting a congregational meeting to vote on whether to keep me as their pastor. Citing things like my desire not to wear a robe when I preach, not honoring the legacy and preferences of Dr. Kennedy to the degree that I should, making personnel changes (bringing in my staff from New City), and not preaching political sermons, these six members have been working to remove me as pastor.The lack of vestments IMO is the key issue. It is symptomatic of all of the breaks made with Kennedy's legacy. Tullian Tchividjian's former pastorate with New City Presbyterian was affiliated with the Evangelical Presbyterian Church denomination, but Tchividjian himself would have deeper theological underpinnings as the grandson of Billy Graham anf the son of his oldest daughter. I'm surprised that the Coral Ridge membership didn't see the warning signs when they voted him in.
Why is that a slam? BG was pretty hip in those days. He was appealing to young people through Youth For Christ and carried the trappings of youth...just as Tullian is today.
Oh, and he would never have worn a robe for preaching.
Another congregation, yes, but not neccesarely another denomination.
Both Coral Ridge and New City Presbyterian (the church that Tchividjian started and came from) are associated with existing denominations (PCA and EPC respectively). My guess is that the members splitting from Coral Ridge will attempt to (re)align themselves with the PCA. Their dispute isn't with the denomination, rather they probably think the (new direction of) the local congregation isn't in line with the PCA's values.
They'd go EPC or some other Presbyterian/Reformed denomination before they'd go independent/non-denom.
How do you guys keep all those three-letter acronyms straight?
“Where were the Protestants in the 12th century? The 9th? The 14th? The 3rd? They never existed until 1517”
They were in the RC church.
I LOVED Dr. James Kennedy!! I am a staunch Catholic and I LOVED him almost as much as I love Pope Benedict!
You say when the Lutherans left the RC church, the RC church didn’t split.
But when the 400 presbyterians left Coral Ridge, the Coral Ridge church did split.
You can’t have it both ways.
Billy Graham didn’t wear a leather jacket and ducktail his hair. He was against such fads.
You wrote:
“They were in the RC church.”
Nope. They didn’t exist.
You wrote:
“You say when the Lutherans left the RC church, the RC church didn’t split.”
Exactly. Lutherans left and the Church was still the Church.
“But when the 400 presbyterians left Coral Ridge, the Coral Ridge church did split.”
That’s what you say. I never said that. I said this: “Yep, and which denomination now will be the real Coral Ridge sect? After all, the one keeping the name, will not be the one teaching like the Coral Ridge of just a few years ago!!!”
“You can’t have it both ways.”
I’m not even trying that. Maybe you should read more carefully? Where did I say that Coral Ridge was splitting? You show me. Can you?
Catholic apologetics sure are funny! How is your reading for comprehension, vlad?
Another congregation, yes, but not neccesarely another denomination.
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