When Did Belief in the Virgin Birth Begin?

http://www.fultonsheen.com/Fulton-Sheen-articles/When-Did-Belief-in-the-Virgin-Birth-Begin.cfm?artid=15 ^ | unknown | Bishop Fulton J. Sheen

[stfassisi]

Before adducing our evidence, it is important to realize that the Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ, does not derive her belief from the Scriptures alone. This will come as a surprise to those who, whenever they hear of a particular Christian teaching, ask: "Is it in the Bible?" The Church was spread throughout the entire Roman Empire before a single book of the New Testament was written. There were already many martyrs in the Church before there were either Gospels or Epistles. An authoritative and recognized ministry was carrying on the Lord's work at His command, speaking in His name as witnesses of what they had seen, before anyone decided to write a single line of the New Testament.

[stfassisi]

Please remove the first thread I started where the paragraphs did not transfer

[stfassisi]

When finally the Gospels were written, they recorded a tradition; they did not create it. It was already there. After a while men had decided to put in writing this living tradition and voice, which explains the beginning of the Gospel of Luke: "That thou mayest know the verity of those words in which thou hast been instructed." The Gospels did not start the Church; the Church started the Gospels. The Church did not come out of the Gospels; the Gospels came out of the Church.

The Church preceded the New Testament, not the New Testament the Church. First there was not a Constitution of the United States, and then Americans, who in the light of that Constitution decided to form a government and a nation. The Founding Fathers preceded the Foundation; so the Mystical Body of Christ preceded the reports written later by inspired secretaries. And incidentally, how do we know the Bible is inspired? It does not say so! Matthew does not conclude his Gospel saying: "Be sure to read Mark; he is inspired, too." Furthermore, the Bible is not a book. It is a collection of seventy-two books in all. It is worth opening a Bible to see if we have them all and have not been cheated. These widely scattered books cannot bear witness to their own inspiration. It is only by something outside the Bible that we know it is inspired. We will not go into that point now, but it is worth looking into.

[ROTB]

Isaiah 7:14, so 700+ years before Christ or the Apostles walked the earth.

Not hard!

[stfassisi]

That was the prophecy and not the actual fulfillment that was witnessed by the Church. It’s important that you pointed that out though ,dear friend.

We can also use the typology to give credibility too.

Like this ...

There was a virgin, Gen 2:22-25 = There is a virgin, Luke 1:27-34

Shows the parralles to Mary as the New Eve coupled with the writings of the early church Fathers.

Such as....

“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155)

[madison10]

The second Gabriel said, “You will be with child by the Holy Spirit...” (maddie10 paraphrase)

[LiteKeeper]

how do we know the Bible is inspired? It does not say so!

"All Scripture is inspired by God..." 2 Tim 3:16

"inspired" = theopneustos = God+breathed

[stfassisi]

“All Scripture is inspired by God...” 2 Tim 3:16

You only believe this because the Catholic Church gave you New Testament Canon.Thus you trust the Catholic Church that all scripture is inspired

[Valpal1]

Never once did Our Lord tell these witnesses of His to write. He Himself wrote only once in His life, and that was on the sand. But He did tell them to preach in His name and to be witnesses to Him to the end of the earth, until the consummation of time.

Um, this claim is based entirely on the written narrative of the Bible. Kind of circular, really. We have no way of knowing if he ever wrote notes or messages to his mother or family or to the apostles. We can only know what was recorded, not what was not recorded.

[SoConPubbie]

“All Scripture is inspired by God...” 2 Tim 3:16

You only believe this because the Catholic Church gave you New Testament Canon.Thus you trust the Catholic Church that all scripture is inspired

Not me, my friend.

My belief in the Virgin Birth is soley the result of the Bible, and the fact that when I believed the Gospel, God saved my soul, forgave me my sins, and most importantly, changed my heart in effect making it meet the criteria stated elsewhere, that old things have passed away, and all things have become new.

So since God kept his word about saving me when I believed him, that is all I need to know that the Bible is the Word of God, and by extension, what is says about the virgin birth, is God's truth.

[SoConPubbie]

Um, this claim is based entirely on the written narrative of the Bible. Kind of circular, really. We have no way of knowing if he ever wrote notes or messages to his mother or family or to the apostles. We can only know what was recorded, not what was not recorded.

Except that the narrative was passed from one generation of believers to the next. First from those who had witnessed the event, and then to those who chose to believe the Gospel and let God change their hearts and minds thereby proving the validity of the Gospel as written by the first witnesses and so on and so forth.

There is no circular logic when you take this into account.

[stfassisi]

You need to thank the Catholic Church for what was recorded and canonized -without the Church there would not be a Canonized Bible. What is recorded and canonized is there because it lines up with tradition of what was taught in Catholicism

[stfassisi]

“”My belief in the Virgin Birth is soley the result of the Bible, and the fact that when I believed the Gospel, God saved my soul, forgave me my sins, and most importantly, changed my heart in effect making it meet the criteria stated elsewhere, that old things have passed away, and all things have become new.””

That’s a great testimony.dear friend,but without the Catholic Church you would not have the Bible.

Think about all the Christians who believed in Christ and were saved before the Bible,they did so by word of mouth and tradition.

Even when there was a Canonized Bible it was read in the Catholic Church because Scripture was never given to individuals. Did God hand out scrolls to everyone? No, God gave His Word to particular men and women, who shared it with the community at large. This was written down and shared with the future communities. The Bible is NOT EVER shown as something given to each individual of the community. If you want to follow how the early Church did things, then you ARE to comply with the leaders of the community.

[stfassisi]

BTW,
You have a marvelous homepage. I never realized Mc Cain was that corrupted.

It makes me wonder if he was planted by the communists

[JSDude1]

Before the Birth of Christ, to answer your question

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

So what is your point?

Of course the Virgin Birth of our Lord Jesus, as a fact, preceded the church and preceded the writing of the “New Testament” of scripture.

And, of course, the first Christians, the earliest Church, preceded in history the writing down of this “New Testament” part of our Bible.

We who were born centuries after these events have no other way to know of the Virgin Birth, or of His death on the cross, or of his Resurrection and Ascension - except by the Scriptures.

Isn’t it wonderful that God has deemed it fit to transmit His truth in the written Word of God just as He deemed it fit to come to this earth, as the Son of God, sent to redeem lost sinners - He the LOGOS of God - the LIVING Word of God - the expression of God!

How marvelous and wonderful are His ways!

[SoConPubbie]

The Bible is NOT EVER shown as something given to each individual of the community. If you want to follow how the early Church did things, then you ARE to comply with the leaders of the community.

While I have not argument with your statement that the Bible is here because of the Catholic Church, I do take umbrage at your statement "then you ARE to comply with the leaders of the community".

God is gracious, righteous, omnipotent, and merciful, and if the Catholic Church had failed, God would have still found a way to get his Word into the hands of the common man.

Jesus came to give salvation directly to the individual, with or without a priest, pastor, or Pope.

[boatbums]

Please clarify your use of "Catholic Church". Do you mean the "Universal (meaning of the word catholic)" Church of all believers in Jesus Christ or just the "Roman Catholic" Church? This is a very important distinction since the church of Rome did not set herself up as the "one true church" until nearly 400 years after Christ. Eastern Orthodox churches still do not recognize Rome as such. The church, or called-out assembly (ecclesia), is the body of believers in Christ and not a specific religious affiliation.

God, who, I'm POSITIVE inspired scripture, also ensured it would be kept and preserved for eternity. He used his human children to do so.

Matthew 24:35 (New International Version) 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

[Valpal1]

Nope, it’s still illogical. That particular statement jumped out at me. The writer categorically states that Jesus wrote only once in his life. The writer has no way of knowing this with any degree of certainty. The bible records only this one instance but does not state this is the one and only time Jesus ever wrote anything.

The fact that He wrote in the sand means He knew how to write, which means He must have practiced the skill while learning it, so the event recorded was logically NOT the only time He ever wrote anything.

We can only know what was recorded, not what was not recorded.

[stfassisi]

So what is your point?

God is not a pluralist.He founded a Church,not many churches and many interpretations of the Bible that came 300 plus years after Christ died.

Once you know this you're going to be faced with a decision to either ignore this and follow your own ideas or follow the Church that gave you the Bible