Posted on 09/20/2009 2:46:15 PM PDT by Colofornian
SNIP
Sharing testimonies is an important part of the Latter-day Saint experience. We bear testimonies in many settings — in the home with family and among friends and associates or in missionary experiences. In Church, one Sunday is set aside every month for the bearing of testimonies during sacrament meetings.
SNIP
In his address at the October 2004 general conference, Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve...said that his experience throughout the Church leads him to worry that too many members' testimonies linger on "I am thankful," and "I love," and too few are able to say with humble but sincere clarity, "I know." As a result, he noted, meetings sometimes lack the testimony-rich, spiritual underpinnings that stir the soul and have meaningful, positive impact on the lives of all those who hear them.
He...counseled, "We need to replace stories, travelogues and lectures with pure testimonies. Those who are entrusted to speak and teach in our meetings need to do so with doctrinal power that will be both heard and felt, lifting the spirits and edifying our people."
SNIP
As we listen to general conference this October, we will hear many bear pure testimony. Numerous times over the years, we have heard President Thomas S. Monson, first as an apostle and now as president of the Church, bear such testimony. May we, as Primary children sing, be inclined to "follow the prophet" in our endeavor to nurture, strengthen and share our testimonies that we have a Heavenly Father who loves us, that Jesus is the Christ, Joseph Smith was the prophet who was raised up to restore the fullness of the everlasting gospel...
(Excerpt) Read more at ldschurchnews.com ...
Oh no, anatomy on the thread again!
GZ you hit the nail exactly on the head.
It is all about fundamentals.
Let me share how this works based on what I was thinking last night, and Reno, you can take this as a lesson on why and how it works and the difference between fundamental doctrine and the methods one chooses to follow them.
Like I said I was reading this last night as I was sitting down at one of our team meetings we have to prepare for our prison ministry weekend where we go in and bring the message of Christ’s saving grace to 42 incarcerated men.
We are in an old Methodist Church meeting hall in downtown Jackson MS., about 45 of us.
On my right is Mike, my Catholic buddy, on my left Dean, and A.M.E. member, myself well I am the groups Methodist/Greek Orthodox/Methodist.
Giving the message of the evening is Sylvester, an African American and a Baptist. Jim, the leader of the group for this particular weekend is a Methodist as well, the second is an Episcopalian.
Across from me are other good friends and as I recall just the 4 directly across from me were a Primitive Baptist Preacher, a Presbyterian X 2 and a Lutheran.
The man heading up the clergy group for the weekend is a Catholic, and working with him we have an African Episcopal Minister over here for his PhD, another Methodist minister, the Primitive Baptist I mentioned and I think we have another Methodist coming on board.
We are singing songs, sharing verses and prayer together, eating good food.
Our message the same.
Do we all worship and practice the same way? No. Some have elaborate cathedrals and liturgy, others have store front churches and rock bands. Some dunk, some sprinkle, some dance, some don't. Some venerate Mary others think that strange but understand.
But all love the Lord, know there is but one God who became flesh and dwelt among us for the remission of our sins. By his grace we are saved and he knows our hearts.
On last thing, and this is mostly for you Reno, something to ponder. None of us do this work to seek Gods favor and our own glory. We work because of God's favor, and for his Glory, namely Jesus Christ.
We come together as humble servants not to seek adulation or exaltation for that is not ours to have, but to serve both him that loves us and those men who need him.
That is what the body of Christ is about.
Reno, I know how important it is for the various denominations to be at each others throats for the LDS to make sense and be able to present it's self as something better.
But there will be no fights, no battles and no quarrels among the many faiths here, just love.
Yes there have been disagreements, everything from two men arguing to full out wars, but these are the manifestations of men and the work of the evil one, not the heart of Christ. And if one simply looks, one can see that the body of Christ comes together much more often than it comes apart...
And you weren't at each other's throats in holy war? No, your group is an excellent example and testimony of the Body of Christ. In the same manner, even more joined together in Promise Keeper events. When I was in DC for the PK day of prayer, I was one among a million or so other Christians, who gathered as Christians, united under the fundamentals of Christianity.
Evil men will corrupt whatever they can for power. That was shown in the past of the Church, but not what the bible teaches. Those who seek schisms in the Body do so against the expressed Word of God and stand condemned by it. The only one that I know that savors such behavior is satan and those who would listen to him.
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Bump, bump, bump. Great post!
That's GREAT!!
It's GOOD to be happy!
(My laptop just FROWNS at me!)
It’s a red curve, so it is always at least whimsical....
Well I did not tell this story, and perhaps in the interest of full disclosure I should.
A very good friend of mine and member of my church does indeed lead a group of about 20 young Methodist men in sometimes very brutal contests against similarly composed groups from other denominations.
I know last week they beat a group of young Baptist, rather handily too.
I think the score was 54-37...
Could this be what the Lord was referring to in your quote "Lord, Lord have we not prophesied, cast out demons, and done many wonders in Your name"?
Listed below is a copy of a post of mine from awhile ago referring to scriptures that say works are necessary. If you're correct, you have nothing to worry about. If you're wrong however, you may have much to worry about. My prayers are w/ you in any case.
John 5:28-29
“28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation”.
So, who shall come forth unto the resurrection of life? Those that have DONE good.
Luke 18:18-22
“18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me”.
Now, this ruler was already a believer, & yet when asked about how to inherit eternal life, did the Lord say, just believe in me? No. His answer is quite revealing.
John 11:25-26
“25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Now, if all that was required was to believe, why say “And whosoever LIVETH and believeth in me shall never die”? Note it says LIVETH and believeth.
Titus 1:16
“16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate”.
Now, does the Lord say in their belief they are being abominable, disobedient, & reprobate, or does He say works?
Revelations 20:12
“12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works”.
Now, were they judged by their faith, or by their works? Do you feel the judgment is just to determine who believed in Christ? If belief is all that's needed, then why the judgment of works, why the need for repentance?
Matthew 16:27
“27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Now, this is the Lord speaking. Again, rewarded by their belief, or their works?
I am in no way, shape, or form trying to indicate that grace doesn't play a very important role in all this, for w/o the atonement, all these works would be meaningless. But in order to gain all the Father has, not just be saved, one must have both faith & works. The scriptures seem to be quite clear on that. But that's just my humble opinion after years of study & prayer.
Diligence, patience, and enduring to the end is required to ensure our salvation:
2 Peter 1:4-10; 2 Peter 3:14-18; Heb. 12:1,7,14,15; Heb. 10:36; James 1:12; Mark 13:13; Heb. 6:15; Heb. 3:14; Rev. 2:7,10,11; Col. 1:22-29; James 5:7-12; 1 John 2:24-25. Why? Rom. 8:16-18; Rev. 3:19-21; Rev. 21:7; Heb.12:9,10; Acts 17:28,29
The words of Christ himself:
His teachings show that obedience is required to obtain eternal life; there is no hint of “once saved, always saved” or instant salvation without works:
Matt. 19: 16-23 (point blank: to obtain eternal life, keep the commandments); see also Mark 10:17-30; Luke 18:18-30 Luke 10:25-28 (again: keep the commandments to be saved) Mark 12: 28-34 (Christ teaches the two greatest commandments, and tells one who understands them that he is “not far from the kingdom of God”) Luke 11:28 (blessed are they that DO the word of God)
Sermon on the Mount
Matt. chapters 5 to 7 (focuses on works, behavior) Matt. 5:19-21 (must keep commandments) Matt 5:48 (must seek to be perfect) Matt. 7:13,14 (the gate is straight and narrow) Matt. 7:21-23 (Must DO God's will; Christians who did evil will not go to heaven) Matt. 7:24-28 (those who do what Christ says are built on a sure foundation) Matt. 24:13 (endure to the end to be saved) - see also Matt. 10:22 and Mark 13:13 Matt. 12:35-37 (will be judged by our words, to be condemned or justified) Matt. 16:24-27 (we'll be judged by our works) John 8:31-32 (we must continue in the word of Christ) Luke 21:19 (patience is required to preserve our souls) Luke 21:34-36 (be cautious, avoid sin, to be counted worthy to stand before God) Mark 11:25-26 (we must forgive others to be forgiven ourselves) John 5: 28,29 (those that do good obtain life) John 14:15,21,23 (Christ teaches us to keep his commandments) John 15: 1-14 (we must bear fruit, keep commandments) Matt. 13:3-23 (parable of the sower: He warns that some receive the word and believe, but do not endure: will they be in God's kingdom? See Luke 9:24-26) Matt. 12:50 (must do his will to have a close relationship with Christ) Matt. 13:40-43 (parable of the tares: those in his kingdom who do evil are damned) John 12:50 (The Father's commandment is life everlasting) See also Luke 21: 19,34-36; Matt. 25 (esp. v. 31-46); John 3:5
Judged by works:
Rom. 2: 4-11; Rev. 20: 12-15; Matt. 16:27; Gal. 6: 7-9; Rev. 22:12-14; 2 Cor. 5:9,10; Col. 3:24-25; John 5:28,29; Eccl. 12:13,14; 1 Peter 1:17; Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12; Rev. 2:23; 1 Peter 4:17-19.
Repentance and obedience are required for salvation:
Acts 2:37-38; Matt. 4:17; Acts 17:30,31; 2 Peter 3:9; 2 Cor. 7:9-11; Ezekiel 18:4,5,9,20-27,30-32; Ezekiel 33:11-20; Acts 26:20; Mark 6:12; Luke 24:47; Heb. 5:8,9; Rom. 2: 4-11; Prov. 4:4; Prov. 19:16; Deut. 6:17; Eccl. 12:13,14; Matt. 4:4; Deut. 8:3; 1 Sam. 15:22; Jerem. 7:23; 2 Cor. 10:5,6; Exo. 19:5; Deut. 29:9-15; John 7:17; Rom. 6:16; James 4:6-10; 2 Thess. 1:4-9; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; Matt. 5:48; Lev. 11:45; Lev. 19:2; Lev. 20:7,26; Matt. 5:19-20; Rev. 3:5,19-21; Joel 2:12,13; 2 Cor. 10:5,6; 2 Cor. 7:15; Phil. 2:8.
Saved by Grace - but we access that Grace by obedience:
Eph. 2:8; Rev. 22:12-14; Philippians 3:12-14; Heb. 5:8,9; Exodus 20:6; James 4:6-10; Matt. 5:7; 1 Peter 1:13-22.
We must do, not just believe:
James, Chapters 1 and 2; 1 John 3:18,19; Matt. 7:21-27; Matt. 25:31-46; 2 Cor. 5:9,10; Titus 2; 1 Peter 1:22; Matt. 12:50; 1 Tim. 6:17-19.
Christians can fall from grace, so be cautious:
Heb. 12:15; 1 Cor. 10:12; 2 Pet. 1:4-10; Heb. 3: 12-14; Heb. 4:1,11; Matt. 7:21-23; Luke 21:34-36; Phil. 2:12; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 6:4-6; Heb. 10:26-31; 2 Cor. 6:1; Jude 1:3-13; Col. 1:23; James 5:12,19,20.
Sin can keep you out of heaven:
1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:16-26; Eph. 5:3-7; 1 Thess. 4:1-7; Col. 3:5-25; Jude 1:14-25; Heb. 12:1-17; James 4:4; Matt. 5:22; Matt. 25: 31-46; Ezek. 18.
We must grow and progress through obedience to be saved:
2 Peter 1:3-10 (heavy!); 1 John 2:4,5; Phil. 3:12-15.
2 Chr. 15: 7 Be ye strong . . . for your work shall be rewarded. Ps. 28: 4 (Rev. 2: 23) Give them according to their deeds. Ps. 62: 12 (Prov. 24: 12, 29; Rom. 2: 5-11) renderest to every man according to his work. Eccl. 12: 14 God shall bring every work into judgment. Jer. 17: 10 (Jer. 32: 19) to give every man according to his ways. Micah 6: 8 do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly. Matt. 5: 6 they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness. Matt. 5: 16 that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father. Matt. 7: 12 whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them. Matt. 7: 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Matt. 13: 23 received seed into the good ground . . . beareth fruit. Matt. 16: 27 (1 Cor. 3: 8; Alma 9: 27-28; D&C 138: 59) shall reward every man according to his works. Matt. 25: 40 as ye have done it unto one of the least of these . . . ye have done it unto me. John 3: 21 he that doeth truth cometh to the light. John 8: 39 If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. John 9: 4 I must work the works of him that sent me. Acts 10: 35 he that . . . worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Rom. 2: 13 doers of the law shall be justified. 2 Cor. 5: 10 receive . . . according to that he hath done. Gal. 6: 4 let every man prove his own work. Gal. 6: 7 whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Eph. 2: 10 created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Eph. 5: 9 fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness. 2 Tim. 3: 17 perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. Titus 3: 8 be careful to maintain good works. Heb. 13: 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will. James 1: 22 be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only. James 1: 27 Pure religion . . . is this, To visit the fatherless. James 2: 22 by works was faith made perfect. James 2: 26 faith without works is dead. James 4: 17 him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not. 1 Pet. 1: 17 (Rev. 20: 12-13; 1 Ne. 15: 32; Mosiah 3: 24; Alma 33: 22; D&C 19: 3; D&C 76: 111; D&C 137: 9) Father . . . judgeth according to every man’s work. 1 Pet. 2: 12 your good works . . . glorify God. 2 Pet. 1: 5 add to your faith virtue. 1 Jn. 3: 18 let us not love in word . . . but in deed. 1 Jn. 3: 22 we receive of him, because we keep his commandments. Rev. 22: 14 blessed are they that do his commandments.
We read in James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." And as I've cited earlier, James 2:17 "Faith without works is dead", & if dead, it's clearly not enough for salvation. Paul states that even if he had all faith, but lacked charity, he would be nothing 1 Cor. 13:3 & then concludes that thought a few verses later "among faith, hope, and charity, charity is the greatest" 1 Cor. 13:13
LDS believe that we are saved by the grace of Christ which is given to us by way of covenant, a two way contract if you will; "if we accept Christ and do our part, following and obeying him, then Christ does everything else, forgiving us, cleansing us, healing us, and giving us power to return to the presence of the Father - not because we earned it, but because we accepted the terms upon which he offers his infinite grace and mercy".
In Romans 2:4-6 Paul teaches us that the goodness of God leads us to repentance & that repentance, based on faith in Christ, is an essential part of the plan & wherein God will judge every man according to his deeds. In verse 7, we read that God will give eternal life to those "who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality." In verse 13, it is "not the hearers of the law ... but the doers of the law that shall be justified" - and we know that he means justified through the Atonement of Christ, through his grace, for we are saved by grace, not by works, as Paul writes in Eph. 2:8, but it is by doing our part of the two-way covenant, the patient continuance in well-doing, that we gain access to that grace.
Salvation is not "earned" by keeping the commandments, but by our obedience, we do our part in the two way covenant of mercy and gain access to the full grace of Christ, or thereby "have the right to the tree of life."
Works are not necessarily an automatic result of "just" believing, but are something we must do to grow in faith and to seek the high goals that Christ has set for us. Through works such as love, service, sacrifice and obedience, we grow in faith and grow closer to the Lord, reaching out to receive his grace.
Now, let's go back to James 2:18-24
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Peter also testified that our obedience brings purification of our souls through the grace of Christ. He said in 1 Peter 1:22 "ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth". In this section, he also warns of judgment according to works and of the need to be concerned (1 Peter 1:17), of the need to withstand trials of our faith (1 Peter 1:6-9); and the need to lay aside sin (2 Peter 2:1,11).
So, the question is, can one read the words of Christ Himself & conclude once saved, always saved? Is there anything in the scriptures about grace that requires no effort, no obedience, no sincere repentance, no discipleship, no patience? No.
The Sermon on the Mount focuses entirely on the works we need to do to become His children. Let's get back to the words of Christ. The Lord was asked twice, point blank, what one needed to do in order to obtain eternal life. The answer, keep the commandments, i.e. Matt. 19:16-21. Here the young man believed in Christ, but could not follow the command to sell all he had & give to the poor. He couldn't make the final sacrifice required to become perfect in Christ. He already believed, the sacrifice, or works, was where he couldn't pull the trigger.
So much more could be said here in conjunction w/ the other scriptures I cited, but it's late & I think enough has been said. I hold no grand illusions that this will change your thinking, but rather hope this will give lurkers further food from which to feast. This is important stuff here & I appreciate your civil participation.
John 5:28-29
“28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation”.
So, who shall come forth unto the resurrection of life? Those that have DONE good.
Luke 18:18-22
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Now, this ruler was already a believer, & yet when asked about how to inherit eternal life, did the Lord say, just believe in me? No. His answer is quite revealing.
John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Now, if all that was required was to believe, why say “And whosoever LIVETH and believeth in me shall never die”? Note it says LIVETH and believeth.
Titus 1:16
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Now, does the Lord say in their belief they are being abominable, disobedient, & reprobate, or does He say works?
Revelations 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Now, were they judged by their faith, or by their works? Do you feel the judgment is just to determine who believed in Christ? If belief is all that's needed, then why the judgment of works, why the need for repentance?
Matthew 16:27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Now, this is the Lord speaking. Again, rewarded by their belief, or their works?
Of course, the works here cited in these & the myriad of other scriptures I have cited earlier are in context, unlike the scriptures in Galatians for example that are talking about the Law of Moses. These scriptures here are not talking about the Law of Moses.
Of course there's a lot more here I could cite, but this should suffice & frankly I don't have the time today for a full rehash of my tete-a-tete w/ Godzilla some time ago.
Speaking of Godzilla, I just don't have time today buddy. You've taken this conversation into a myriad of different directions as is customary whaen you feel backed against a wall. Perhaps some day soon, but not now.
To both of you & all here, my best to you folks for a great weekend.
Faith is evidenced by a change of heart. If your heart truly changes then it is evidenced by the fruits of good works.
First comes faith - then the heart change and then good works follow naturally, as well as devotion, love, and adoration of our Savior and His creation.
Doing good works for a salary, for your own benefit is not faith nor devotion. Buddists do all kinds of good works and so do Mormons. I am especially concerned with the “good works” of Mormons because they are done in hope of “earning” reward. Many of those saving works done within the Temple are simply self-serving.
Focus upon yourself and the good works you do and what you will earn is sinful. In contrast, faith in God, and the knowledge that you are redeemed, leads to becoming a slave in devotion to your Savior. The only thought is Him. You really have no care in what you may earn if anything. Being with Him is all you could ever want or need. Faith is knowing who He is, trusting in what He has done and resting in the knowledge that whatever He does is best and appropriate. It MAKES you so joyful, you can’t help from doing good.
Every one of your Bible passages back this up. Every single one.
That's not why they wouldn't be saved. People profess to be Christian, but are actually lying.
I know--hard to believe, but people do actually lie about things like this.
Teachers may lead others away simply because the teacher may not be mature enough to know better, but still have good intentions. Being a teacher of Scripture is a big responsibility.
it is the difference between True Christianity and all other faiths, and the best and sure sign that Christianity is the truth faith of a loving and powerful God.
All other faiths require earning at least a shot at salvation, something you won't know until it is too late since you never will know the “score”. You just go through the check list and hope for the best.
Cults are particular bad about this, including (and especially) the “christian” ones. They push works to sustain the organization with emphasis on recruitment and money generation.
Like I have said before we work because of God's favor not to earn it. Paul made that very clear.
Thanks for making this point.
Many profess His name who aren’t actually saved. It isn’t what they do or don’t do to lead others away that makes them “not saved.” It is the fact that they are in a position of leadership for their own glory. Their focus is on what their position “earns” them, whether it is accolades, power or money.
It is their unbelief that makes these leaders “unsaved.”
Get a Mac, mine smiles at me every time I boot up. :P
LOL!
Really? Let me just pick a couple.
Titus 1:16
“16 They profess that they know God; but in works THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate”.
Revelations 20:12
“12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works”.
Now, were they judged by their faith, or by their works? Do you feel the judgment is just to determine who believed in Christ? If belief is all that's needed, then why the judgment of works, why the need for repentance? If faith were all that was needed, why preach repentance at all?
Of course there are several others, but do you really believe these back your argument?
The sincere preachers, not the liars, but the sincere ones. Are they saved even though they have led many away from His teachings because of their erroneous interpretations?
Surely you don't claim to know the intent of all preachers across the land do you?
Yes, especially the first one.
“16 They profess that they know God; but in works THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate”.
We were talking about leaders who lead people astray and so this is a perfect illustration of what I’ve been saying. I’m surprised actually that you don’t see it.
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